Katie's motto is "stop being a weenie", which speaks perfectly to her belief that anything can be accomplished with a little bravery. Katie had a lucrative - but unsatisfying career - in Sales and Marketing for years. Until one day she walked out to build the life and career she really wanted. She went on to get her training in Executive Coaching and Leadership Development at the Co-Active Training Institute in San Rafael, California. Now, she's a Certified Professional Co-Active Coach and an Associate Certified Coach with the International Coaching Federation. Katie built her successful business helping mission-driven entrepreneurs get out of overwhelm and into six-figure incomes - all while doing meaningful work that they love. Now Katie spends her time between Philadelphia and Cape Cod. She loves travel, her goofy dog Luna, and celebrating her clients' wins with good champagne. Katie shares her advice on how to find a good coach, tips and tricks she uses that you may never have heard about, and the importance of time management, among other goodness, enjoy!

In this episode Peter and Katie discuss:  

00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:22 - Intro and welcome Katie McManus

3:05 - You’ve been through it. What do you do for clients who come to you saying they are just a complete screw-up?

03:53 - Upon hearing a new client’s story…

04:48 - Treasuring the benefits

05:04 - the ADHD brain is always working

06:15 - On not using neurotypical advice

06:40 - We with ADHD do not have a built-in electric water heater; we have to pump-up the good hot water for ourselves. [Which explains getting up at 4AM today].

08:01: How listing every single activity can in itself bring a sense of accomplishment/a dopamine hit  Ref: Canva App 

08:40 - What are some of the other tips and tricks you’ve learned over the years?

08:43 - How to do time management when you’ve got something at 2pm and it’s already noon

10:24 - What about scheduling weekend blocks of time?

11:33 - Neon colored index cards and an elliptical machine anyone?

12:15 - What would you say to someone who wants to work with a coach, but doesn't necessarily know that it's it's right for them?

13:44 - How can people find more about you? Web:  https://www.katiemcmanus.com/ 

Socials: @katie.the.coach on INSTA @katie.mcmanus.leadership on Facebook and @katiemcmanusleadership on LinkedIN 

14:00 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

14:37 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits 

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

[00:00:37] Peter: Yo yo everybody what's going on. My name is Peter Shankman. This is Faster Than Normal. I'm gonna save you guys. I’m going to save you the usual spiel I give every day because today or every episode because today, my daughter went back to school and, and my daughter who sleeps in till noon, if I let her every day was up at 4:15 in the morning. Oh. Which is even before I get up this morning. And so I had my entire bike ride and everything else about an hour earlier than normal while talking to her and explaining to her that it doesn't matter that she doesn't know who's gonna be in her class because I'm sure she'll make tons of friends. And I was rewarded by bringing her to school and saying, so are you all set and realizing that she had already left to join her a bunch of friends. So feeling really loved this morning. It's. Good. Good place to be. So with that being said, meet Katie McManus. She's going to provide me the love that my daughter didn't give me. Um, Katie is a business strategist and coach, um, with a great motto or motto is stop being a weenie, which I love that. I, I say it, uh, I say it stop being a dumb ass, but it's sort of the same premise. It's like stop, stop worrying so much. Show a little bravery and get the hell out there. Jump out the plane already. She used to work in sales and marketing. Hated it. And she went on to get her training, executive coaching and leadership development and coactive training Institute in San California. She's a professional, proactive coach and associate certified coach, the international coaching Federation, all these things I didn't notice. OK. She built her successful business, helping mission driven entrepreneurs, get outta overwhelm and into six figure incomes while doing meaningful work that they love, she spends her time between Philadelphia and Cape Cod, which is just weird. Uh, she loves travel, which is cool. She has a goofy dog named Luna, which is cool, and she likes celebrating client wins with good champagne. So I'll take those and that's, that's a good enough reason to have you on Katie. Welcome. 

[00:02:18] Katie: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Although the bar to be here to show you enough, love to make up for your daughter. That's pretty high. 

[00:02:26] Peter: I was gonna say you got your work cut out for you. So let's get started. um, I fully expect to be loved the next, next, uh, next few months. So next few minutes. So, I mean, I, I, you know, this is a podcast for people with ADHD and then, and sort of sort of neurodiversity and things like. And so they've spent the majority of their lives. Most of our listeners spent the majority of our lives at least I have, um, you know, hearing that we're broken. Right. And hearing that, that, that it doesn't matter what we're gonna do, cause chances are gonna screw it up. Cause that's just what we are. And so, you know, you, you, you come from, you have that background, you understand sort of where that comes from. Um, you know, what do you, what are you doing? What, how are you working with clients who come to you and say, yeah, I'm just complete screw-up? 

[00:03:05] Katie: Yeah. Um, well, it's interesting cuz I think there's a difference of when you are you're diagnosed. Cuz I was diagnosed when I was a kid. Right. And I lived in California and um, my parents actually sent me to a, a special school. They sent me to a Waldorf, um, which I don't know if you're familiar with Waldorf. It's kinda like summer camp all year long. Um, and they like neglect to teach you things like math. Uh, so I didn't learn like math until I was about six years old, but I don't know. I, I was able to integrate it into my workflow from a really early stage. Um, I actually didn't realize that. If, when you get diagnosed later, you have this stigma attached to you because you've spent so much of your life feeling like a fuck up and not knowing why. And I'm sorry. I, I hope we're allowed to swear here, 

[00:03:52] Peter: here. Go for it by all means. 

[00:03:53] Katie: Okay, great. So, um, when I'm working with my clients, it's, it's really interesting. Um, You know, they are coming to me freaking out about, oh, I fucked this up again. I screwed this up again. I'm getting this done late again. And on one side, it's like, okay, well, let's kind of deconstruct that story that you have, that you're screwing everything up all the time and that things are supposed to be done by a certain point. right. And then on the other side, like, you know, , you know, why not just make that part of your process? Why not just design that with your clients from the get, go that, Hey, I have ADHD and sometimes, uh, I'll send you emails the last minute. And if you need something from me before then just ping me for it.

[00:04:38] Peter: And I think that, that framing the disabilities as a benefit. Yeah. Right. Is something that, that not enough people do. And again, not enough people do it because they've been told all their lives. It's not a benefit. It's a curse. Right. You know, you are broken. And so I think that that's a, it's a good answer. I think though it takes, it takes a lot of work to get there. Um, it's, it's hard to believe. that you have something good. Um, when, when you come from this world where it's not, yeah. 

[00:05:03] Katie: You know, I have, I have this one lawyer, um, client and he's brilliant, absolutely brilliant. He has ADHD. And I can't tell you how many times he tells me that he came up with this incredible idea to win a case in the final hour because he procrastinated. 

[00:05:20] Peter: You know, like no, a lot of us do that

[00:05:21] Katie: . Right. But procrastination, when we think of procrastination, like, yes, we're not writing the paper. Yes. We're not doing the project. Yes. We're not doing the thing. It doesn't mean we're not working on it though. I don't know about how your process is, but I know when I'm procrastinating, I'm cleaning my house. I'm sewing a costume for Halloween in three months, I'm taking my dog for a walk. My brain is churning on that project. Right? It's it's trying things out. It's creating arguments for this. It's getting organized. I I'm not physically actually working on it. You wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to hand you anything that I've done on it, but I've already done the work in my head by the time I go and put pen to paper, if I'm writing.

[00:06:03] Peter: Right. I mean, I think a lot of that also is the fact that, you know, because we work differently, right. We do that in such a way where, you know, it might look like we're doing absolutely nothing. We're surfing the web, we're doing whatever, but there's, there's a, a candle that's lit back there and it is burning.

[00:06:15] Katie: Right. Right. I think also we, we make the mistake of trying to take neurotypical advice on productivity and that's something that actually hurts us more than it helps us. You know, I don't know if you're familiar with that saying like eat the frog first thing in the morning. No, of course. Yeah. I'm sorry. I don't have enough dopamine, first thing in the morning to get self water. Right. I have to. Well, and that's right. 

[00:06:37] Peter: Yeah. It's funny. It's funny because that, the whole premise behind that, you know, when people think of praise being up as early as I do, uh, to exercise it's because of exactly that, that is my version of. Yep. Right. I'm getting, I don't, I, you know, everyone, like, you know, do you think I really wanna get on the goddamn bike at four 30 in the morning and ride for an hour? No, wanna sleep. How's wrong with you. Yeah. Right. But you don't, you don't do that. Yeah. Because you know, what has to happen, 

[00:06:59] Katie: right. Right. It's like, it's kind of funny, you know, we think of neurotypical people, it's almost like they have an electric water heater right next to their shower, you know? And when, when someone with ADHD or who is neurodiverse, it's like the water heaters down in the basement, were on the third floor. Right. Like we just gonna have to prime the pump. We have to like get all the cold water out before we can really tackle that big thing. 

[00:07:20] Peter: Wow. That's a great way of looking at it. Right. That's I love that. I'm I'm blatantly gonna steal that. That's a great way of looking at that. No, it's, it's really true. That, that concept of priming the pump- you. Uh, people wake up, you know, I remember that I always thought for years that I was in high school, that I was awesome. Um, at first period, no matter what first period was, and it turns out first period was always English. Yeah. Or social studies, the two things I always loved. Yeah. Right. The senior year it was math. Well, I'm screwed. you know, all of a sudden my, my first period class, not a good thing. Mm-hmm right. So it's that it's that, you know, that premise of it? No, it comes down to the fact that, that I was getting my dopamine for the rest of the day from the first grade class that I enjoyed, right? 

[00:08:00] Katie: No, a hundred percent for, for me. I actually went into Canva and I created a list of all the things I usually like to get done in the morning from drinking my coffee, to take my dog for a walk, to exercising, to meditating, to showering, to brushing my teeth. And I find the days where I actually cross those things off as I do them, not in any particular order, um, are days that I am far more productive later. Because I've given myself credit for all the little things that I've done and I'm able to feel a little more productive and it really does get that, that dopamine dripping, which helps me get more stuff done.

[00:08:36] Peter: Yeah, no question about it. So tell me some of, some, some of the other secrets and tricks that you've learned over the years.

[00:08:41] Katie: Oh, man. Um, I mean, time management is a big thing for me. Um, I had a really hard time with a coach I had a while ago who I, I stopped working with pretty quickly, um, The neurotypical way of organizing a day is like do 30 minutes of this and then do 30 minutes of that. I'm sorry, that just doesn't work for me. Um, if I'm going to start working on something, I know I'm gonna get into hyperfocus and I need like a good chunk of time to be in hyperfocus because there have been too many instances where I've gotten really sucked in on a project I'm really into it. And then I missed three appointments. Right. Right. So I get this time anxiety. I can't even get into hyperfocus these days if I have something two hours from now. Right. Because I know like I'm just gonna constantly check the clock and like, I'm worried about the interruption. 

[00:09:33] Peter: So, what do you, so, so, so, 

[00:09:35] Katie: so what I do is I honestly, like, I, I tell my, my business manager and my, my assistant, like, you're not allowed to, like, these are my blocks for creative time and they're five hour blocks. And the amount of work that I can get done in a good five hour block is unheard of . Yeah. But I wouldn't be able to do that if I were just plugging in an hour a day, right. The same amount of time, but the way it's organized, just my brain just can't get into it in just an hour. 

[00:10:01] Peter: Oh, because the end of the day, you need to give yourself, you know, cause if you're okay, I have a meeting at two. Well now it's 11. All I gotta remember. And 12 o'clock and start thinking of one. O'clock exactly. And so, so you're not giving it the full capacity? No, I, I do the same thing. I block off, I block off creative days, right? Uh, no, one's allowed to schedule stuff with me on certain days of the week and that's just, that's just me to have, have a good time and create my, whatever I'm creating.

[00:10:17] Katie: Yeah, totally. Um, I also , I don't know, like weekends are really hard for. Weekends. I, I don't know. I have this expectation that I'm productive all week and on the weekends, I have to be productive in my personal life. Like I have to clean and I have to do all these things. Um, for the longest time I would just sit in terror of like, I'm a failure, I'm screwing this up. Like I'm not getting everything done for hours on Saturday morning until I actually started prescribing a Disney movie to myself every, every weekend morning mm-hmm . And it's like, there's a point at which. I don't know, there's this, this active resting thing that happens when you're, when you're watching something, that's not a lot of work to watch. Right. Where you get kinda not bored, but you're like, I'm done with this now. I've had my rest. Now I get to go do something. Right. But for, for me, like I have to be for me to turn my brain off it. There has to be a story going on. 

[00:11:13] Peter: Right. No makes perfect sense. And I think that's really interesting cause you know, a lot of growing up for me, at least it was, um, my I'd always wanted, I always wanted to be listening to music when I was studying. My parents would always say, no, it can't do that. Can't do that. Can't focus when you're doin gthat. Well, it turns out obviously, you know, now that, that would've actually been perfect. Right. That would've incredibly, incredibly beneficial. 

[00:11:32] Katie: Yeah. Did you ever use like neon colored, uh, index cards for studying? Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh. Any trip, love that stuff. I actually got like a little mini elliptical and I'd be with, up with my geography book in front of me. I'd have a map, I'd have my index cards and I'd just be like pumping away on this little mini elliptical. 

[00:11:52] Peter: That's funny. That's funny, but no, it is, you know, again, it's what works and we didn't know .God, when I was a kid, I probably would've, I would've benefited so much from having like a, you know, a treadmill desk or anything, any of those things, they just didn't, they just weren't there. Right. I have no question about it. 

[00:12:04] Katie: Or like talk to text, you know, you walk and talk and you're just like figuring out your paper. And even if it's messy, you get to go back and edit it later, but you get all the thoughts out. 

[00:12:13] Peter: Yep. What would you say? Um, at the end of the day to someone who's who's, you know, wants to work with a coach, but doesn't necessarily know that it's it's right for them or, you know, they, they feel things like that.

[00:12:24] Katie: I mean, honestly, there are so many coaches out there that aren't gonna be a good fit for you. I would say, just go and contact a bunch of them and have, have a discovery call. Just see if they're, if you even like the person, right. Because that's half the battle, cuz you're gonna be spending a lot of time with this person. You have to trust them. You have to know that they're on your side. Um, Like the only way to figure, figure out if you wanna do something or not is to explore it and get the information that you need. Um, and that's what I, I always invite people. Like, if you're curious about working with me, just book up call, I'm not a high pressure sales person at all. I come from sales. It doesn't mean that I utilize all the gross tricks that they teach there. Um, but it's really ..Know what it is that you wanna accomplish through coaching. Really really important, cuz otherwise it's, it's really hard for a coach to support you when you're not even sure what you wanna get out of it.

[00:13:17] Peter: Um, no, I understand.

[00:13:18] Katie: And, and yeah, like find someone who, you know, you're gonna be able to be honest with, so not someone that you're trying to impress all the time, because you think they're cool. Um, and someone who you, you enjoy actually talking things through with. 

[00:13:37] Peter: That makes perfect sense. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Very cool. Well, I appreciate you guys taking the time. This was, this was a lot of fun. Katie McManus business transcripts. How can people find you? 

[00:13:46] Katie: Uh, they can find me at my website at www dot Katie. K a T I E. McManis cm, a ns.com. Um, and on Instagram at Katie dot the dot coach. 

[00:14:00] Peter: Very cool. I will have people reach out. We'll put in in with the show notes. Thank you so much for taking the time. We appreciate it. 

[00:14:05] Katie: Thank you so much for having me. This is so much fun and I, I hope you feel so much love. I'm sending it to you right now. You're channeling it through your daughter and all that. 

[00:14:14] Peter: That was great. I'm trying my best. Gonna go pick her up, you know, hopefully she's a good first day and, and things go well. So all good.
Guys. Thanks for listening to Faster Than Normal. We'll be here again next week with another episode, if you liked, you heard leave us a review uh, stick around fun stuff coming every single week this entire year. It's a new year. It's a new Dawn. It's a new day. The summer's over. Welcome back. We'll see you guys soon. 

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

A few fun facts about our guest today, Shawn Malloy:

48yr old Father of 2, a little trouble being ‘present’ sometimes.Married 17yrs to a very tolerant and patient wife Meghan.Undergraduate degree in Biochemistry (after starting as a music major) from California State University, Long Beach (study abroad semester in Nottingham, England). 21 years at current employer, Biogen, 12 roles in 8 groups over 21 years. Hobbies: parkour (6 stitches), rock climbing (sprained knee), mountain biking (sprained ankle, lots of scars), and trail running, Yoga, meditation, swimming, racing midlife crisis Camaro, guitar building from scratch. “Poor student” all the way from kindergarten through high school – a few flashes of brilliance caught by the odd teacher throughout. Dangerous teenager and mid-20s kid. 25 jobs by the age of 27 and only fired once. Still struggles with honing in on 1 passion. In his own words:  “I’ve always preferred breadth to depth but I know that if I gave my full attention to one of my passions, I’d conquer the world. As with most ADD folks, I tend to be my own worst enemy in that regard. But anytime I’ve given something full attention I’ve had wild success – the guitar is one of my favorite examples. I had a desire to build a guitar for a while, a passion for artistic endeavors, creating things, and woodworking, and a goal of finishing it before Christmas as a gift for my dad. The end result was a beautiful piece of functional art, and it was the first time I ever saw my father cry”. Today we’re talking mostly about Neurodiversity in the workplace. 

—— 

In this episode Peter and Shawn discuss:  

00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:01 - Intro and welcome Shawn Malloy

03:36 - You had 25 jobs by the age of 27. Let’s talk about how you’re not bored now, finally.

04:25 - "An ADD brain is like having a Ferrari engine with bicycle brakes"

04:55 - ADD can really be a blessing if you're in the right environment or you've put yourself in the right environment

05:55 - Growing at work under good, or ideal managing

06:55 - What happens when you get a dud for a manager at work?

08:05 - About Human Resources

09:40 - About recognizing talent and knowing how to utilize it in it’s best possible ways

10:22 - Trust = Commitment

10:54 - On Managers and management

13:19 - On how purposeful planning is so important

15:00 - What do you tell the up and coming manager about how to manage folks with neurodiverse brains?

15:47 - “You don’t manage to the role. You manage to the person”.

17:47 - On the power of diversity

18:42 - What is the one thing you’ve learned about your brain, that you wish you would’ve learned earlier in life?

19:12 - This bit right HERE on Imposter Syndrome and permitting your neurodiversity to work

20:00 - How can people find more about you? LinkedIN profile page is here: linkedin.com/in/shawn-malloy-3636696

20:22 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits 

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

[00:00:37] Peter: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal my name is Peter Shankman. I am thrilled to have you here today. It’s great to be here. Its a gorgeous day outside its approaching the end of August as we're recording this. Couple more weeks to labor day, I am about to get outta here and take my daughter out for a week to Tenerife. If you don't know where that is, all need to know it's off the coast of Spain and it is the largest has the largest water park in the world. So you could make the argument I'm going to the largest water park in the world and taking my daughter with me. So it doesn't seem weird. Anyway, thrilled to have you for another episode!

We have a guy named Shawn Malloy on the podcast. Shawn is different than some of our guests, but also very much the same as all of our guests. 48 year old father to 12 year old boy Killion, 10 year old girl, Anna. He loves his kids to death has trouble being present sometimes .Sounds familiar, born and raised settled north of Boston, Massachusetts married 17 years to a lovely tolerant and patient wife named Megan. Here's the cool part undergraduate degree biochem okay, so abroad in England, 21 years, the past 21 years, he has worked at a company called Biogen, which is how I met him when I gave a keynote to Biogen about a month or so ago, 12 roles in eight groups over 21 years, loves adrenaline sports .Sounds, familiar, parkour, rock climbing, mountain biking. I love that he puts all this stuff in his bio and includes the number of stitches and injuries he got with each one, which I think is just so ADHD for all of us. He races a car. He has a midlife crisis Camaro on track. He built a guitar from scratch. Don't we all with that? Anyway, his story is like all of ours. He was a poor student. He was a dangerous teen, he, hit his stride stride in college. Let's talk to Shawn and figure out what turned him into what he's doing today. Shawn, welcome to Faster Than Normal man. 

[00:02:37] Shawn: Thank you very much, Peter. Um, your talk at Biogen was definitely it hit home. Um, I was an adult diagnosed #ADHD or #ADD um, survivor, I guess you could say. Uh, and my teen years is definitely a survival story to some extent, um, But, yeah. Thanks for, thanks for having me on this is, uh, I'm looking forward to a fun conversation.

[00:03:00] Peter: At the end of the day, we make it through, we survive it. Somehow we move on, you know, we become adults. I joke that, um, you know, I turned 50 a couple of weeks ago, but didn't really hit me until yesterday. When I had a wall unit delivered. I now own a wall unit in my living room, which is. What kind of bullshit is that right? That's how, you know, you're getting all that, a goddamn wall unit. You know, I used to just hang my TV on the wall, right? No, not I have a wall unit cause you know, I need storage. What is that? Right. Welcome to middle age. 

[00:03:30] Shawn: Adulting. Um, it's horrible.

[00:03:32] Peter: Yeah. So let's talk about ADHD. You had 25 jobs by the age of 27. You were only fired once you got bored, super fast, right? Biogen, you found a place that never let you get bored. Yes. Um, okay, so let's talk about that. Cause not everyone has the fortune to not always, you know, not everyone has a job where they don't always get bored.

[00:03:56] Shawn: It it's been, honestly, it's been pretty amazing. Um, I think Biogen's been a place that. If you're performing reasonably well, you don't even have to be a top performer, but you're performing reasonably well. They'll let you try different stuff out. And I've moved from jobs that were somewhat adjacencies to jobs where I, I didn't know what I was doing. Um, And much to my surprise, each time I would be at 80% of my peers within a couple of months. And I attribute that to that ADD brain. Right. You've got this #Ferrari engine with bicycle brakes. Um, I. I was always able to assimilate information really quickly, put the pieces together, learn really fast, and it started to be intrinsically rewarded, rewarding. You talk about that dopamine hit, but the success profile that Biogen let me build over the years, just continued to add confidence to me as a person. Um, but also to the power of ADD. Like once I found out that I had ADD it started to click that this really can be a blessing if you're in the right environment or you've put yourself in the right environment.

[00:05:02] Peter: Well, and that's sort of one of the, sort of the unexpected gifts of, or ADHD that we, we figure out, right? No one can tell you that, right? No one can say, oh, trust me. It's gonna be, you know, you don't believe it. It has to happen. And it has to show up naturally, but once it does. It's sort of that way of call, like, wow, I'm in a position. I, I, I have this job where I have ability to not only do my job great, but then I can create things within my job that give me that dopamine hit that, let me work harder and let work more and let do better. So it's almost like selfing, prophecy. 

[00:05:33] Shawn: Yeah. Yeah. And in my time here, right, I've had 21 years. You can imagine I've had a lot of managers in that time. I've really only had two duds. And those were the times where there was such rigidity placed on me. And what I was allowed to do that I really did actually flounder. I, I was not good at the job, or I just couldn't get engaged with the job. And those were really hard and it got me to a point. You know, rather than looking for the ideal job, I look for the ideal manager and just make sure that the work's gonna be interesting.

[00:06:04] Peter: That's an interesting point. Instead of finding the, the, looking for the ideal job, you look for the ideal manager. And I think a lot of that actually resonates because I remember, you know, the few jobs I've had, right? I, I, I, I worked for America online, back in the nineties. That was the last job I ever had. The only job I ever had. And I had a great manager who let me, who understood, like do your job, you know, do it whichever way works for you, but get it done. And, and that. I think for me, you know, for my first job, having that as a first job was a bit of a, a problem because, uh, I just assumed every job was like that right. I went to my second job and, and, and it totally was not. And, you know, there were 8:00 AM meetings. There were check-ins and like, you know, I quit in two weeks. So having that ability to find that, or to have a boss or to have a, a manager. Who understands how you work and let you, lets you go the way you want I think it's key. You sort of honed in on that and you said it, you only had two sort of duds. What happens when you get a dud though? How do you, how do you sort of handle yourself? Because it's not, you know, if you can't be yourself, if you're not allowed to do the things you want, be the way you want. It's difficult.

[00:07:06] Shawn: It's very difficult and it, the problem that was just, it continued to get worse is I didn't stop being myself. I don't think that that's in the, a add profile is the ability to not be impulsive and not be yourself. Right. Um, that's so one of the things that defines us, so the relationship just deteriorated from not good to really bad. But what I did have was this long history of performance with a lot of people, I had a big network, so I was able to work through my network to find the next opportunity. Um, and really that was the only way out. I was not working my way out of this, this problem with the manager that was the dud or the managers that were duds, it just wasn't gonna work. Uh, one of the managers was removed, so they were a dud for everybody, not just me. The other one was the manager who was highly regarded and really was a brilliant man, but it was not a good personality match between how I needed to be functioning and how he wanted me to be functioning. And that one, the one where I network. 

[00:08:04] Peter: That's interesting point. That's interesting point because you know, it's not all the time that, you know, remember there are a lot of times where you you're sitting there and you're going okay. It's not that the, the boss, isn't a good boss. He's not a good boss for me. Yes. Right. And how do you, how do you sort of explain that, you know, to, to the powers that be when they don't understand what he, not a good boss for you, he's a boss, you know, you deal with it. Well, it doesn't work that way all the time.

[00:08:31] Shawn: No, it really doesn't. And you're very right. HR is almost always gonna side with the boss and they did, um, they didn't fully get it, but I wasn't in a unique position. This was, you know, maybe 15 years deep into my career here. I had built this legacy of everywhere I went, I did excellent. So it wasn't like, they just thought all of a sudden I'm not doing my job, but it was not a pleasant experience trying to, to escape if you will. I, there were a lot of things up against me, but I don't, I think there are gonna be a lot of people that don't have that benefit. 

[00:09:00] Peter: Well, that's the thing that brings up a really interesting point is that, is that every, you know, for as long as you're in a job, whether it's 15 years or 15 days, you know, your goal is to create a, a sort of, uh, security blanket around yourself where people look at you and go, yeah, he's a really good worker, or he's a really, you know, smart employee or whatever and so if something's not working. Right. Let's not be that quick to blame him. Let's see what the issue and, and that doesn't necessarily happen all the time because companies aren't trained to think that way. 

[00:09:35] Shawn: Not very often. No, I've what I got to know when I became a supervisor, is that there are very few people who don't want to do a good job. I would say it's bordering on none. Nobody wants to come in and be known as the crappy employee. Um, there's usually a barrier in their way, and it's whether it's a barrier in how the job is functioning or the training, or in my case, if you having a person with a ADD or some other, um, I don't wanna call it a disability, a different ability, a different brain, right. Um, you've gotta find ways to get them to be their best, cuz if you can find that for them; man, will they run through brick walls? Like if you're the person who discovers what that person's talent is after they've been, um, pushed down their whole life, what a connection seriously. Um, and had many of those over my career.

[00:10:22] Peter: That's really a key point also, because if you are a manager and you're able to bring that out, Your in your employee. Right. And, and, you know, not only bring that out, but, but appreciate it as opposed to try and push it back down, you know, these employees will go to the end of the Earth for you. And I don't think enough managers- don'ts that, that. They don't realize the level of commitment that someone with a different brain will give you. If you give them that level of trust. 

[00:10:54] Shawn: Oh, you I've seen it too many times to not believe it's true. Peter. You're, you're dead right. And. The not only that, right? The work side of things, but that personal connection that you get that personal, just watching somebody light up because they've been discovered for what they bring to the table. The, the trouble with managers is very few of them receive good formal training. It's kinda like when you're parenting, right. You become a parent. And then all of a sudden you've gotta figure out how to raise a human being. Um, when you're a manager, most of them are thrown to the, the, the job because they were good at a job, but not necessarily good at managing right. The good ones over time, come to realize that you manage the individual, you don't manage to manage your role. You manage to the people that you have in front of you. And, and that does get to you're managing to every individual difference. You're bringing out the bright spots and trying to minimize the deficits and it's not easy. It really isn't. So I don't, I don't fault always the managers who aren't good at it because it, it does take a, a really dedicated person to be able to do that. And you also have to have the bandwidth to do it. A lot of managers are given a day job as well as a manager role. So there's gotta be some patience for the manager as well. 

[00:12:04] Peter: Isn't that, um, what you said earlier that, that, you know, most managers aren't born into, into the concept of managing they're they're they're become, they become managers cause they were given a job which isn't necessarily a manager job. Isn't that the Peter principle, the Peter principle is, is the object that basically states that every worker will rise to his or her highest level of incompetence. Yes right in that, in that you, you, you, you hire someone and they're good at their job, so you promote them and they're good at the next job, so you promote them again and they're good at the following job. So you promote them again. Then they're not good. If finally reach a point where they're not good. Well, you don't demote. But you don't promote them again. Right. So they sit there. Right. And they, it that's how bureaucracy happens. 

[00:12:43] Shawn: yes. Yeah. It, it plays itself out over and over again in corporate America. For sure. I, I don't really have a good solution for it. Right. But I, I think, I don't know if there is one there really, 

[00:12:55] Peter: I think we can make a lot, you and I can make a lot of money, but you figure one out. 

[00:12:58] Shawn: No question. Yeah. I would agree. Um, I took a few notes as I was thinking about this podcast and, and the things I wanted to be able to convey. And we've talked about a, a great one, right? I think understanding how to navigate your career with ADD is important. But one of the things that I've I've learned throughout the years is, um, purposeful planning. As a person with ADD and activation energy. And I think they do relate to how I've navigated my career over time at Biogen. It wasn't just that I bounced around from job to job because I'm a ADD; I did all along have plans. Um, and for me, it's similar to the guitar that I built. Right. I had a, I finally had something that I could leverage my artistic capability, my engineering capability. I had a goal around it. Timing. And step by step of how to approach it. And I've, I've approached my career much the same way. And when I first started supervising people, I was in the manufacturing element of Biogen, very small little world. Okay. Very small little world. Right. But you feel like it's all there is because you're in the science, you're actually making the drug. But as I was developing people, all, I really knew how to develop them for were manufacturing roles. So I wanted to get out and see the broader thing that is biotech. I wanted to hop into some individual contributor roles, learn what different roles did so that as I came back to a management role, I'd understand how to develop people. Like when I saw somebody's passion to speak to what we were getting to before, when I noticed somebody's niche, I didn't necessarily know what to do with it other than maybe a small part in manufacturing, but now that I've come full circle with all this knowledge of all these roles, when I see somebody who's got a particular passion, I know where that fits in the organization. I know how to put them in a role that's gonna get them into that flow state. And that's good for people with a ADD that's good for people in life in general, but it all came because I had a plan that as a manager, I wanted to be able to develop people better, to be able to do that. I had to understand 

[00:14:53] Peter: that brings up a great point. What do you tell, you know, if you had to. Sort of hammer that down in 10 words. What do you tell the up and coming manager about, I mean, managing in general, but obviously managing people with neuro diverse brains, right. Because you know, , you certainly do not learn this in school. 

[00:15:11] Shawn: No, I think it's the first question I ask my people, um, when I meet them is- what is your passion? Where does time disappear for you? And then I'm gonna do my best to find the aspects of the current role that you're in and whatever future roles you wanna point yourself towards where that passion can come to bear as often as possible. Every job is gonna have crap you don't wanna do, sorry. It's work. Yeah. But the more that you can leverage those points of passion. The more you're gonna enjoy your work. The more you're gonna succeed. And the more you're just gonna really shine. And that's, that's what I would tell managers is you don't manage to the role you manage to the person.

[00:15:51] Peter: Ooh, I like that. 

[00:15:52] Shawn: If you wanna get the most out of the people that are around you, find out what drives them. Where does time disappear for them? You'll be surprised, right? You may hate analytics. You may hate looking at data, but I've had people under me who that is their passion. Mm-hmm they love working in a spreadsheet. They love seeing the story that comes out. When you start looking at the data and the numbers. If you have somebody who hates that, don't put them in a role that that's their main function. Find the person that that is their passion and oh, you're. Get such better work outta them, and you're gonna get better dedication, better loyalty. And you'll have people coming to you for jobs because they wanna work for you because you get it. You get how to place them in success.

[00:16:35] Peter: You bring an interesting point because I think a lot of people, whether you're manager or not, you know, we tend to gravitate towards the stuff that we're good at the stuff we like. Right. I mean, you know, let's. As we're as we're growing up and we're in school when we're undiagnosed with a neurodiverse brain, um, it's no surprise that we gravitate towards the stuff we're really good at, right. For me it was, it was English or it was, you know, it was social studies or whatever it wasn't math. Right. And so math would be horrible. So I would avoid math as much as possible. I think as adults, when we're in job roles, we sort of keep that uh, in the back of our heads and we don't really let that go away. So that, so that, that, you know, we tend to gravitate sorts of stuff we like to do and try to avoid the stuff we don't. And so, because of that, I think, you know, we look at our, our, our sort of employees when we're in a managerial role and we put them in the same boat, but what we have to sort of understand is that, that we might have employees who love the very stuff that we hate, like love. Yes. The very stuff that we hate. And we have to sort of, I guess, embrace that. For them. Right. And let them under, you know, Hey, you, you have that math kick. Great. Go do math. you know, I, I, I look at along lines of, I, my assistant is awesome at the stuff I'm terrible at. She doesn't let me schedule stuff in my calendar because I screw it up, but she's great at it. She loves that stuff. And so it's that, it's that giving over that ability for her to do that.

[00:18:08] Shawn: It's the power of diversity, right? We're talking about neurodiverse brain, but the power of diversity is everywhere in life. It's everywhere in work. And if you can work with people who are different than you, you're gonna be so much better off because everybody can bring a different strength to bear. Yeah. The hard part is a hundred percent. Different personalities that are there. Cause that can be a little weird. We are humans at the end of the day and sometimes we get a little quirky on the personality side. 

[00:18:32] Peter: I think. We could do nine and a half hours on managing personalities. So I'm not even gonna start with that. but I will, I will end it with this. I'll ask you this. What is the one thing you've learned about your brain, whether it's, you know, in a professional setting or personal setting with your wife or your kids that you wish learned earlier? 

[00:18:54] Shawn: That is a great question. I think you had mentioned it it's that the imposter syndrome, um, that it's very real, that it exists, but it really isn't true 90% of the time. The ADD brain, you are so good at so many things, and you can see the big picture better than so many other people. You're gonna be your own harshest critic. Yeah, that does not mean that you are not still better than 80 or 90% of the people who are doing the same thing. It means you're not 80 to 90% as good as you wanna be, or, you know, you could be, but stretching that extra mile may not be worth the effort. Your, your good enough is gonna be better than most people's best. So don't let imposter syndrome beat you down. 

[00:19:46] Peter: I love that.

[00:19:46] Shawn: Don't fall prey to it. Have faith that what you're doing is probably better than the majority of the people around you.

[00:19:53] Peter: That's that's a phenomenal, uh, a phenomenal line. That's that's awesome. I love that. I love that. Awesome. Well, listen, I cannot thank you enough for taking the time, Shawn really appreciate it. I'm so glad we connected, uh, at the Biogen talk.

Guys, Shawn Malloy , uh, how can people find you? How can they, how can they, uh, learn more about you?  LinkedIN profile page is here: linkedin.com/in/shawn-malloy-3636696

[00:20:11] Shawn: Uh, LinkedIN I am on LinkedIn. It's Shawn S H a w N M a L L O Y. Uh, and you'll find me as employed by Biogen. That's probably the cleanest and simplest way to find me. 

[00:20:22] Peter: Awesome guys. We’ve been visiting with Shawn Malloy and you've been listening to Faster Than Normal. My name is Peter Shankman as always. We love that you're here. And if you had a second right now, go and leave us a review. I cannot tell you how those reviews help our uh, podcast growth, the more reviews the more it helps the website and the podcast is seen. It is really incredible, and we're able to help more and more people understand that ADHD is a gift, ADD is a gift, Any form of neurodiversity is a gift, not a curse! We will see you again next week with a brand new interview and a brand new episode. We appreciate you listening, and we appreciate all our guests, including Shawn, thank you so much Shawn for taking the time. Guys, thank you for listening. We will see you next week. My name is Peter Shankman. And remember the ADHD and all forms of neurodiversity is probably the best thing that ever happened to you. We will see you next week. Stay safe. Talk to you soon.

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Skye Rapson is an academic and coach with over seven years of experience working in adult education. Skye has studied in various fields, including Psychology, Sociology, and Public Health, and is now a Doctoral Candidate in Population Health. She was diagnosed with ADHD at the start of her doctorate. Since then, Skye has dedicated her time to researching and disseminating ADHD studies, founding Unconventional Organisation in 2020 to provide ADHD adults and managers with strengths-based, neurodiverse-friendly ADHD coaching and workshops. We’re learning about how and why she began, today. Enjoy!

In this episode Peter and Skye discuss:  

00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:01 - Intro and welcome Skye Rapson!  Ref: Interview with Sally Willbanks, founder of ND Renegade [actually based in Australia]

01:57 - So you were diagnosed at the beginning of your PhD program?

03:00 - What changed and maybe made more sense after your diagnosis?

03:39 - Ref: Interview with Rachel Cotton, another PhD student w/ ADHD

04:00 - How did your priorities shift?

04:27 - What Skye found of from her peer group at university

05:55 - Let’s talk about your “Unconventional Organization” Ref: Her podcast: Unconventional Organisation with Skye Rapson and her coaching service: https://www.unconventionalorganisation.com

06:54 - What kinds of trends did you find when you started conversing with other neurodiverse folks?

07:42 - On changing the way we get things accomplished 

08:40 - What would you now tell your 15-year-old self?

09:03 - How can people find more about you? Web: https://www.unconventionalorganisation.com Socials: @unconventionalorganisation on INSTA and Facebook 

09:24 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

09:58 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits 

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

[00:00:37] Peter: Hey everyone, Peter. Shankman welcome. The episode of Faster Than Normal today is a PhD. We seem to be doing a lot of doctoral candidates lately. I don't know why doctoral candidates seem to get diagnosed, but maybe cuz they're smart enough to know that something's not, uh, normal, like other people. And they're like, Hey, let's figure that out. But either way we get another one here. Her name is Skye Rapson and Skye's an academic coach with over seven years of experience working at adult education, she has studied in various fields, including psychology, sociology. and public health and is now a doctoral candidate in population health in New Zealand. So we are a long way from home today. She was diagnosed with ADHD at the start of her doctorate. And since then, she's dedicated time to researching and disseminating ADHD studies, founding unconventional organization in 2020 to provide ADHD, adults and managers with strength based neurodiverse friendly ADHD, coaching and workshop. Skye, welcome. 

[00:01:35] Skye: Hi. Yeah. Great to be here. 

[00:01:37] Peter: Good to have you here. So ADHD, you know, it, it's interesting. We had, we have there's someone else from New Zealand who we've had on the podcast. Um, she runs, uh, oh God, what's the name, but neuro neuro it's line of t-shirts neuro… Oh, I'm spacing on it now. I have one of them. It's awesome. Awesome shirt. I'll remember it, but, and we'll put it in the liner notes, but yeah. Um, long way from home. So good to have you, you were diagnosed at the beginning of your PhD, uh, beginning of your doctoral research. Yeah. 

[00:02:04] Skye: Yeah, no, I was diagnosed. I actually thought I had, um, dyslexia. I went in, um, postmasters. Um, so I'd done my masters and. It was good, but it was tough. And, um, right at the end, I thought I should probably go and see if I, if I might have dyslexia. I know it, you know, it's something that my family have talked about potentially having. Um, and I came out, um, several weeks later with an ADHD. Uh, you know, you probably have ADHD and a couple of other things as well. 

[00:02:30] Peter: So you were surprised you were surprised at that. 

[00:02:32] Skye: Yeah, it, it made a lot of sense. I mean, you wrote out, read out all the different things I'd studied, you know, tell me you have ADHD without telling me you have ADHD. I kept getting to the end of a degree and being like, well, you know, this might not be for me. I think I need to switch to a totally different area and learn a totally different subject. Um, and so, um, you know, in hindsight it made a lot of sense and I learned about ADHD, but I hadn't put the pieces together in, in. Fit my life. 

[00:02:58] Peter: Amazing. What, tell me about what it was sort of like sort of the wake up call once you were diagnosed, what sort of started to make sense?

[00:03:05] Skye: Yeah. So in terms of what made sense, I, I really focused on understanding why I was burning out because what I was experiencing was a period, you know, up until that point, I'd done a year generally at a time, you know? And so I would, I would study something really intensely for a year, work on it, stay up all night, you know, do weekends. And then I would burn out and I would need a break. And then I would be like, well, I guess maybe this isn't the subject for me and I'd come back and I would do something else. And that was very much how my ADHD was, was manifesting. 

[00:03:39] Peter: Now I believe that we had a, another PhD on the podcast named Rachel Cotton. She was one of our first interviews and she always talked about how, uh, she thought it was perfectly normal to live on, you know, uh, 14 caffeine tablets away. Yeah. , you know, um, But no I get that. So, so talk about, um, after you got diagnosed and, and things sort of changing, what, how did your priority shift?

[00:04:01] Skye: Yeah, so, so one of the first things I actually did was I, um, I created a community in my university of other people who were postgraduate, um, who were also neuro diverse. I had worked in adult education for a really long time. Um, I'd done a lot of tutoring in universities and I'd sort of told myself when I started the PhD, I'm not gonna do that. Cuz you know, I, I tended to take on too many classes and it was distracting from actually doing the writing. Um, and then when I found out I had ADHD, I was like, oh, but like, you know, one group won't hurt. And so I started I started a group and um, and started connecting with people and learning as much as possible, not just from the research, which. You know, later on writing about, but the very first thing I started to do was to talk to other people. Who'd had those same experiences. 

[00:04:48] Peter: And what did you find out? 

[00:04:49] Skye: I found out that people were kind of frustrated with the university system, um, in terms of, you know, how it fit and how it worked with how they worked. And I think that was really, um, really helpful for me because it meant I didn't spend too long sitting in that space of feeling like it was just me, which so many people with ADHD, I know had that feeling because I immediately was launched into the space of, oh, we're all experiencing these struggles.

[00:05:15] Peter: And it was sort of one of those lessons. I remember sort of the same thing when I finally got diagnosed, everything started to make sense. Part of me was pissed off because, you know, I, I, I I'd spent so much energy. Mm-hmm over the course of my life fighting things that, that, you know, swimming upstream when I didn't really have mm-hmm I'd just gone with the flow. It would've been that much easier.

[00:05:31] Skye: Yeah. Yeah, no, it's definitely, it's definitely, um, a tough thing. And, you know, there was a little bit. Sadness as well. I think to look back on my more was at that point, my twenties, um, and realize that, yeah, it had just been a different, if I'd known a slightly different way of working, it wasn't that it had to be hugely different, but just some adjustments, it could have been so much easier.

[00:05:55] Peter: So let's talk about, uh, unconventional organization. Tell me about it. 

[00:05:58] Skye: Yeah. So, um, I started on unconventional organization in 2020, um, after I'd, you know, worked with the universities, I started working with schools and then when, uh, COVID hit and we all had to go back to our homes. I was looking for an opportunity to keep doing what I really loved to do, which is connect with people and work with people. Um, and I found ADHD coaching. And so I started doing that alongside at that point, um, writing articles. Cause I really wanted to learn more if I was gonna do this kind of space properly, I wanted to learn about the research. And so I, um, started writing articles and challenging myself to put them up every week as a way of, of, you know, keeping myself accountable for that. And, um, those two things sort of ballooned into, into what we have now with, um, you know, people who are training to become coaches with us, um, who also have ADHD. And then also having that, um, that research space as well. 

[00:06:51] Peter: And what did you, so tell me what, one of the interesting things I always, I always ask, what did you find when you started conversing with other people and being like, Hey, we share the same brain. Right? What kind of trends did you, did you find? 

[00:07:02] Skye: I found that people were working a lot harder than people realize people with ADHD. I, I found that a lot of the people that I spoke to would come to me and they'd say, I'm not getting enough done. I need to, you know, and even the people that, you know, the coaches would often come to us as well. And, you know, say I haven't been, I haven't been achieving at the level that I want to, and then I'd ask them what they're doing, because that's part of coaching. We get very specific about what your day looks like and people were spending a lot of time trying to work. And, and in that way they were expending a lot of energy. It just wasn't necessarily, um, giving them the outcome that they were looking for. 

[00:07:40] Peter: Right. And one of the things you learn is that, is that it's sort of a self limiting, uh, prophecy, because you wind up expending all this energy. You're not getting the results. So you try harder and it's still the same thing. Right. So you, so you, you're going down this rabbit hole and you can't win. 

[00:07:53] Skye: Yeah, no, exactly. And then, and then the worst part, you know, at least for us was that people would say, oh, well then I don't deserve to have a break. I don't deserve to have fun. And so we'd end up in this sort of self-fulfilling cycle of just, you know, not getting the dopamine, working hard, feeling like you don't deserve to get a break. So you definitely don't get the Domine and you're continuing to keep trying.

[00:08:13] Peter: Right. And so I guess one of the best lessons there is change the way you try. 

[00:08:18] Skye: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And, and it's about, you know, we think about it in terms of experimentation. We often say, you know, if something doesn't work or it doesn't work for you, we just keep, we just keep adapting it. We just, we just check it out and go. That's interesting, that doesn't work. And then, you know, in, in the case of working with the coach, you come back and you say, Hey, that doesn't work for me. And they go, that's fine. Like we can adjust it. 

[00:08:41] Peter: Right. What would you have told your 15 year old self, if you knew, if you knew that and what you know now? 

[00:08:46] Skye: That's a really good question. I think I would tell my 15 year old self. It's not about finding the perfect career. It's about finding the perfect environment. 

[00:08:56] Peter: Oh good. Oh, I like that a lot. That's a great quote, great quote. Oh, I like, yeah. I really, really love that. Yeah. Um, Skye, how can people find more about you? How can they get, 

[00:09:05] Skye: yeah, you can find us, um, at, [Web: https://www.unconventionalorganisation.com Socials: @unconventionalorganisation on INSTA and Facebook ] um, unconventionalorganization.com, uh, with a Z or with an S depending on which country you're from. Um, we also have, um, a lot of articles about different strategies you can use on the website as well as. And then ADHD coaching as well. 

[00:09:22] Peter: Awesome. Well, I love this sky. Thank you so much for taking the time. I appreciate it all the way from New Zealand. What time is it over there?

[00:09:27] Skye:  Um, it is 5:40 AM . 

[00:09:30] Peter: Okay. So either time to get up, or time to go to bed; I'm gonna assume time to get up.

[00:09:32] Skye: Time to get up!

[00:09:34] Peter: Skye, thanks for taking the time guys. Thanks for listening. You know, the drill, uh, fasternormal.com. Leave a, uh, review anywhere you like iTune, stitcher or Google play, whatever I'm at Peter Shankman, we're faster, normal on Twitter, faster than normal on Instagram, everywhere. And we'll be back next week with another interview of someone just as awesome because of that is what we do.
We will see you soon. Thanks for listening

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Gökçen Şahin, M.Sc., who successfully completed her master's degree in Genetics, has just registered for the PhD program to start her education this fall. Technological advances in the field of genetics in the last 20 years have brought with it a large pile of data waiting to be made sense of. Gökçen will do her PhD in bioinformatics in order to learn how to draw meaningful conclusions from these data and to find solutions for this purpose. Gökçen, who loves to learn new things and is curious, developed a machine learning model in her thesis that can predict the muscle heteroplasmy ratio of patients with given demographic features, family history, and clinical table caused by a mitochondrial DNA point mutation causing mitochondrial diseases. She made these by learning everything herself. She reviewed more than 450 publications fastidiously and worked with doctors to generate her data. Gokcen, who wants to improve herself in this field, wants to have a solid foundation. Therefore, she decided to take her education in this field. Gökçen actually qualified to enter another PhD program last year for the same purpose and started her education. During this period, she was diagnosed with ADHD in December and in January, she learned that she is autistic. While the diagnoses were a great shock at first, she shared her diagnoses with her supervisor in order to pass this period in a healthy way. Afterwards, she was exposed to various mobbing by this supervisor. The severity of mobbing had increased over time. And in February, she was fired by him from the PhD program in an e-mail. Not long after, her ex-boyfriend's family, who learned that she is autistic and ADHDer, did not want them to get married, and they broke up after a 2-year relationship, which was a first for Gökçen. She had many reasons to lose hope. But the opposite happened. The diagnoses resulted in her accepting herself. She faced many challenges throughout her life and she saw that the challenges she experienced was the result of not being accepted as she was. Realizing this, she wanted to go on further and apply for a new program, but she also had fears. She explained everything to her new supervisor before application. And she was encouraged by new supervisor to apply for the program. Now she's telling people that “Being autistic and ADHD is part of the diversity in nature and being able to live as ourselves, to be free of masks is what we have a right to do. The only thing that can hinder this view is when we begin to look at ourselves as people who do not accept us as we are. When we come back from this mistake, we start living a healthy life. Because not being able to be what we are, not being accepted is ignoring us and it hurts. Nobody has the right to this. We are a part of nature, just like everything else." This is a great one- enjoy!

In this episode Peter and Gökçen discuss:  

00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

00:50 - Apologies for the near horrid audio- Peter is still in a hotel.

00:56 - Intro and welcome Gökçen Şahin!

02:45 - Your story is incredible; and it’s frustrating professors would still be so ignorant!

03:21 - So you said that you wrote something out that you wanted to share with us, feel free! 

03:35 - On being accepted for PhD programs

04:03 - On the first meeting with her supervisor/professor

04:51 - On the 2nd meeting with her supervisor

05:50 - What happened next?

08:16 - A little while later…

08:45 - Studying about ADHD

10:00 - On being diagnosed by a child psychologist and then given meds

10:19 - Her professor’s reaction

11:05 - Back to the psychologist

11:51 - On being made a study and the discovery of Autism

13:00 - Amazing. A couple of questions…

13:15 - The fallout and heartbreak

14:00 - Did you go back to your former professor?

15:05 - What types of things that you used to think were negatives, do you now understand to be positives?

15:56 - Fun fact: Your subconscious mind controls about 80percent of what you think; be mindful in your self-talk/inner dialogue. 

16:24 - On being happy inside and being kind to yourself!

17:44 - What advice would you give to someone who has been told that they are broken?

17:55 - THIS PART.  RIGHT HERE.

19:56 - What happened with her new supervisor?

21:30 - How can people find more about you? @GKCNSHN on Twitter

21:30 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

21:40 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits 

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

[00:00:40] Hey guys, Peter, Shankman welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal. Unfortunately, again, I'm still recording from a hotel. Uh, we should be back in my apartment within a week or so, but oh my God, has it been not fun? Anyway, I do wanna talk about something fun today. I have an amazing story here I was on Twitter and someone tagged me in a post and said, you've gotta read what's going on here. And I was introduced to a one whose name. Uh I'm I'm despite my best efforts, I'm probably gonna screw up and I wanna say it's Gokcen shine and I'm pretty, I'm sure I'm relatively close there, but lemme tell you something about Gokcen was in a. PhD program. And, uh, she was doing her PhD in bioinformatics in order to learn how to draw meaningful conclusions from data and find solutions. She was, she loved new things; she's very curious. She discovered a machine learning model and her thesis that could predict the muscle hetero PLAs ratio of patients with given demographic features basically stuff way beyond my pay grade. Right. She's dealing with Mitocondrial DNA, uh, point mutation. I mean, incredible stuff. So what happens. She gets into another PhD program and gets diagnosed with ADHD in January. She learns that she has ADHD and learns that she's autistic. And while this diagnosis works a great shock to her, she shared a diagnosis with a supervisor, and guess what happened with her supervisor? Her supervisor fired her from her PhD program via email! Okay. That's like breaking up with someone over a text message, not cool! Okay. And then after that, her ex-boyfriend's family or her boyfriend at the time who learned that she was a autistic and ADHD, did not want them to get married and they broke up a over a 2 year relationship. Unbelievable. But despite having many reasons to lose hope the opposite happened and the diagnosis resulted in G accepting herself and saw these challenges for what they were through her life, realizing that she applied for a new program. Got in. And now she tells everyone that being autistic and ADHD is part of the diversity in nature. And being able to live as ourselves to be free of masks is what we have a right to do. I am so excited to talk to you. Thank you so much for being here today Gokcen. 

[00:02:41] Gokcen: Uh, thank you so much for inviting me, Peter, 

[00:02:44] Peter: uh, an amazing, an amazing story. I, I, I, I, I remember reading it on Twitter and just being blown away that, that, that, you know, of, of all things, professors could still be that, uh, closed mind truly, truly just incredible.

[00:02:58] Gokcen: Actually leaving it was very hard, but eventually I just, uh, get something at you get new thing at you then .Right now I'm totally okay. 

[00:03:10] Peter: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like, it sounds like you took this, you know, as, as, as difficult as it was, you saw this as an opportunity and, and, you know, used it to your, to your advantage.

[00:03:20] Gokcen: Sure, sure. 

[00:03:21] Peter: So, so you said that you wrote something out that you wanted to share with us, feel free. 

[00:03:25] Gokcen: Yes. Okay. Uh, you can just, uh, cut me if I exceed the time. 

[00:03:29] Peter: really not a problem. Go ahead. Okay, go ahead.

[00:03:32] Gokcen: Uh, just let me mention about myself a bit. I completed my master on genetics in 2021. I am accepted to PhD program and I will, uh, start my education in the field of bioformatics and system biology in this semester. I was actually accepted to PhD program last year, too. Uh, three acceptance. Actually, I got three acceptance last year from three different universities. In the one that I choose I was fired after six months by my supervisor. Uh, I met with him on 6th of July, 2021. In the meeting I mentioned about my background, about my thesis, about my current knowledge in this field and I, um, What I want to do, et cetera. And he spoke very positively about my answers. Uh, and he said, a few people at your level can answer these questions so well, you know why you did what you did. Um, so I said to him that I didn't get any education on this topic. I. In my thesis, uh, I just did something learning on internet, et cetera, but I didn't get any, um, base education on this topic so I need someone to guide me. I'm looking for, um, my master and he said, okay. 

In the second meeting, uh, he wanted me to prepare a project, uh, based on my performance. I will get a chance to apply. I finished my project and email, but he was kind of person that don't answer emails. Meanwhile, I was accepted by two other universities. I dunno why, but I see him as someone that I can trust, but I was totally wrong. Anyway, uh, I sent so many emails to myself, to him. Eventually he wrote something like this. Uh, you are a person who tries to do a given test properly. Is determined by technically needs to move forward. However, I think it will not cause any problems with study. So then I, I applied, accepted government accepted me, a university accepted me in the interview. Supervisor accepted me. So, um, let's start .

Our courses was removed. Uh, however, I went to Institute for a journal club and was going meet with my friends, uh, my team friends. Uh, we were supposed to meet with each other. I expected that they will introduce themselves. Ask my name, myth[?] With me, ask about my background, et cetera. Just some friendly talking, but it didn't happen. They were really cold people. After journal club I went our teams room supervisor came too. Uh, he started to talk with his students. They got along very well in a kind of manner that I don't have any idea. Supervisor, um, open potato chips package. He offered to everyone in the room. I politely said that I didn't want, um, he asked why; I said that I have a high intolerance to lactose and I cannot eat packaged foods. Then very interestingly, he got very closer to my ear, very closer and started to eat potato chips there. It was not nice at all, but I thought that probably this was how they make jokes. Um, because I can't understand jokes most of the time. And I. even can't understand why they are made. Um, while he was eating chips. I, he wanted me to ask a question to him. I asked, uh, why he put advanced statistics in the first term while introductory statistics in the second term, he started to laugh again and with his students and said, oh, did I really do this? Oh my God. And last lovely. Um, In the period of this course choice he didn't say anything to me. Um, so these two courses actually was his own courses, but he didn't warn me. He accepted my course choices and not surprisingly, I couldn't succeed because I was almost your own statistics. And this course what was advanced, I said to him, I wish you would inform me at the beginning, but I will, uh, I said that I will fail in this course and take first of all the introductory course and take this course again later. He said, OK.

Uh, one day he called me to his room, uh, take a white paper in front of him, asked me, do you know this topic. I said, no, he wrote the paper. Do you know, this topic. I said, no; he wrote the paper. Uh, he wrote so many topics that I didn't know about. And he said, okay, go and study them. You should be ready because you are here to do my job. I will do my job. Uh, you will do my job, then I will be able to look something else. Um, I didn't like this attitude at all. I didn't study, I couldn't study what he gave me because this is not the way that I can study. Uh, But eventually he started to get angry with me. Uh, these times I was wondering so much about ADHD, uh, because my psychologist thought that I have. She was, um, nervous because uh, she also got a diagnosis for a while ago and she told me about the common traits that we share. And then I started to study so deeply on ADHD in a kind of manner that hyperfocus . I was collecting my traits to tell all of them to my psychiatrist. Uh, the hospital that I'm going is a medical hospital of Istanbul for, of medicine of Istanbul university. So doctors are working there with rotation, for education. Each doctor see patients for just one month. Uh, when I went to hospital for ADHD evauation , this was maybe the only chance that I have got in my whole life because doctor was a child psychiatrist She evaluated me. It was the 24th of December 2021 I diagnosed with ADHD . Gave me a drug after this session. She said she wanted to see again, very soon. I thought that she will probably ask me whether the drugs work or not. 

I told, um, my diagnosis to my supervisor, I was waiting some understanding, but instead he said that, um, a man without hands cannot be a Shoemaker and no matter how much he wants. But if he works hard, he can become a marathon runner. Maybe he [you] should try another sector. I. Trying to explain that ADHD is not a kind of attention deficit, actually. It's a problem of regularizing of pay attention wherever we can focus, whatever we do more than neurotypicals. But he didn't seem to understand at all. And maybe didn't listen at all. Um, it was 12th of January. I went to a hospital again, I told my psychiatrist that, um, about this, uh, supervisor's unpleasant behavior. And she told me to relax because she said no one had right to kick me out of the schools. I informed her about the effect of drug. Then she asked me tons of questions I didn't understand because these questions was not related with medicine or ADHD. After this session she just said that she wanted to invite me to their department community meeting with the justification of I was their patient for long and she wanted, uh, her professor also evaluate me. Then I said, okay, but this wasn't seem normal to me after going home. I checked each, each question and still didn't understand and what is them about? I Google check [unintelligible] five, watch videos, one thing, but I got shocked.

Me? Autism? Is that possible? Then the face to face community meeting the professor who is the head of the psychiatric department of the hospital, and almost all psychs of the hospital was there approximately 20, 30 doctors. And this time professor asked me so many questions and all of them evaluated. I shared my bad language too, because I sit to someone, uh, after the meeting, my own psych took me her room and explained that I'm autistic. Uh, it was 26th of January this year. Uh, so, and my age is 29. It's surprising. 

[00:12:55] Peter: So, uh, it it's, let me, let me interrupt just, just for a minute, because I, I, I am, I am grateful to you for telling your story. I have, I have a couple of questions that I, I think my audience would wanna know are on the answer to as well. What, what did you, when you were told by your professor that a Shoemaker cannot make shoes, if he doesn't have hands, how did that make you feel? 

[00:13:15] Gokcen: Terrible because you feel like you don't have an ability to think, have an ability, don't have an ability to do something. Uh, you don't have a brain. You cannot think, you cannot be a scientist. Uh, these are, these are incredibly bad things. And, uh, you know what happens in after he said all this to me, I started to cry very deeply and he just look at me with a cold face and it was really horrible. 

[00:13:54] Peter: When you let's fast forward to when you were accepted into your new program? Um, I'm I was curious, you didn't mention this. Did you at all, at any point, go back to this professor and tell him that you were, that you made into this new program? 

[00:14:08] Gokcen: Uh, no, I didn't. I didn't. 

[00:14:11] Peter: Do you have any desire to do that? 

[00:14:14] Gokcen: Uh, actually, I have a really big desire to tell him, um, in a, in maybe I know government education department or something. I really don't want to see him again anymore.

[00:14:30] Peter: Right. I understand that. It just seems to me that, that I think there's, you know, for what he's done and had the way he did it, uh, there should be some consequences for him. Um, you know, that's a, obviously a bigger story, but I do think that that's something you shouldn't, shouldn't just let go. 

[00:14:45] Gokcen: Um, and I will tell, um, more about what he did. Actually. There is so much bad things too, and it's coming. 

[00:14:55] Peter: Well, let's focus. Let's focus on the positives for a second. So let's fast forward to the point where you were accepted into the new program. Yes. What have you noticed? What have you noticed about yourself since your diagnosis? What types of things that you used to think were negatives are, do you now understand to be positives and things like that?

[00:15:14] Gokcen: Uh, could you repeat the question again, please? 

[00:15:17] Peter: Um, now that you're diagnosed, you know, for instance, I'll give you an example. My, uh, my ability to, to multitask I realize is a, is a positive, but when I was in school, uh, it was framed as not being able to pay attention. And so I thought it was a negative. Yes. Right. Once I was diagnosed with ADHD, I realized that it could be a positive. So I'm, I'm curious as to what sort of things that, that you might have thought of as bad things, um, have you since maybe sort of rethought of as possibly good things now that you understand sort of where your, how your brain works. 

[00:15:53] Gokcen: Um, actually, there are lots of things like that until to the diagnosis I always thought that I am weird because everybody in your environment say that you are weird. And when they say until that age, when everybody say this, eventually you also believe them. Um, but I actually, without thinking them, I was already happy in my inside. I couldn't show it to the people, but I was happy too inside because I was, um, I love, uh, in, in a way that what makes me Gokcen and everything. Every trait of autism or ADHD, give me that they are my traits and this is, these are my parts. And I love myself. Uh, but after diagnosis, I can say it loudly that I love myself. 

[00:16:54] Peter: I think that that in itself is an amazing story right there. The fact that you've been able to; understanding sort of how your brain works has allowed you to be kinder to yourself, right? 

[00:17:04] Gokcen: Sure. Because I able to make this master thesis, which is very, uh, hard actually in that time, I didn't know any knowledge about machine learning and I apply and even I created my own data set. Uh, examining more than, uh, 450 articles. This was a huge job. And needs a really strong attention. So this is why ADHD is my superpower and autism, my superpower. Um, yes. 

[00:17:44] Peter: What would you tell, what would you tell students or people who were in your position who might have been told that they were broken as well? What would you, what advice would you give to them? 

[00:17:55] Gokcen: Um, the thing that really saved my life is, um, just accept yourself as you are, because you are incredible, whatever other people say. Um, And be always kind. This is for everyone. Uh, as Robin Williams said, this, the quote that I love so much: Everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know, nothing about. Be kind, always. Because until the time of the diagnosis, I had so many tons of psychological problems. I even stay one month in mental health hospital, like a prison. I suicide twice, uh, heavy drugs. Therapies, tons of therapies. None of them worked. Everybody thought that you are not normal. You just want, don't want to be alive. But, um, but this is not true. Because if you can discover yourself, this is a gift, not a curse. Yeah. And after diagnosing all of the psychological problems just gone away. And I just right now use just one drug and this is for, to, to make it gradually decrease. Uh, and very soon that I will give up all the medicines I will take none of them. 

[00:19:26] Peter: That is wonderful. What a great, what a great story. I love that, you know, when I saw your original tweet, I was sort of blown away about how anyone could be that sort of close-minded, um, especially in education where you're supposed to have an open mind, you're supposed to, uh, embrace that. But, um, it seems to me Gokcen that you've definitely come out on top of this, that you have, you have come out the winner in this story, and I hope that you keep writing and I hope that you keep tweeting and keep sharing your story with the world because you're an inspiration. 

[00:19:54] Gokcen: Thank you so much. Uh, what happened lastly, I wanna share with you. I told my new supervisor about a bit about my situation, and she said; uh, you have had a bad experience, but, uh, don't be discouraged. I'm sure that, uh, you will be much more happier in here. Uh, there are bad peoples in the world, but fortunately they're good ones too. I am grateful to her. Uh, but when I said that I'm grateful she to accepted me, she said that I didn't do anything. You deserve it. We evaluated you as we did to all students. And you deserve it. This is so precious because people pity you uh, about your autism about your ADHD, and this is especially so in my country. But my dear supervisor treated me like she tries to everyone and she didn't show sympathy because I'm autistic. She said I was accepted because I deserved; this is so precious.

[00:21:00] Peter: I love that. I love that. What a wonderful story. Gokcen, Thank you so much for taking the time. My pleasure. Give us your, give us your Twitter account so people can follow you. 

[00:21:09] Gokcen: Uh, sure. Um, my, my, uh, name with, uh, letters, uh, G K C N S H N. This is my Twitter. Thank you so much. 

[00:21:21] Peter: This. Awesome. Thank, thank you so much for taking the time. We're definitely gonna have you back in several months to talk about, to give us an update on what's going on. 

[00:21:28] Gokcen: Thank you so much. You can. 

[00:21:30] Peter: All right guys, as always, thanks for listening to fast than normal. We will see you next week with a brand new episode. Hopefully I'll be back in my office and not in our hotel room and we will talk to you soon. Stay safe, stay well. 

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!