Professor Esme Fuller-Thomson is cross-appointed to the Faculties of Social Work, Medicine, and Nursing at the University of Toronto. She is also Director of the Institute for Life Course & Aging.  She has published more than 170 articles in peer-reviewed journals including the New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet, and Cancer. Her research examines ADHD and mental health, the association between early adversities and adult physical and health outcomes, and disparities in health. She has recently been focused on resilience and flourishing mental health.  Her work has widely cited in the media including the New York Times, Forbes, Wall Street Journal, Time Magazine and CNN. We’re thrilled to welcome her back and hear about her latest research in our last episode of 2022. Thank you for joining us all year long! We hope you have a happy, healthy and safe holiday season, everyone. Enjoy! 

In this episode Peter and Professor Esme Fuller-Thomson discuss:  

01:20 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:15 - Intro and welcome back Dr. Esme Fuller-Thomson!

01:57 - Since our last visit HERE, she has completed some new research on Anxiety and ADHD

03:00 - Women with ADHD were 5x more prone to anxiety, compared to women without ADHD

04:20 - What is the percentage of researchers who study ADHD and Anxiety?

05:45 - On budget, finance and anxiety + ADHD

07:17 - Are you one of the people perhaps more at risk for anxiety? Ref: Research Aug. 31, 2021

08:00 - ADHD and finding moderation with controlled substances/impulse control

09:40 - And now for the new good news! 

11:00 - Ref: Corey Keys at Emory University and his three pillars of “Excellent Mental Health”

13:00 - More than 2 out of 5 are flourishing w/ excellent mental health; how do we get more of us here?

15:12 - On keeping perspective and not hyper-focusing on the bad stuff.

17:25 - A look at the factors in the study of those flourishing with ADHD

18:29 - 300 years ago, exercise was a mandatory part our daily life because we needed it to simply exist

19:40 - People who use spirituality to cope w/ their day to day troubles were much more likely to be in complete mental health.

20:43 - Point | Counterpoint on relationships and marriage

21:17 - Happiness and chronic pain

22:00 - Remember, just a few years ago it was still rare for Women to get an ADHD diagnosis

23:56 - What is CBT and can it be helpful? Ref: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy 

00:00 - How can people find more about you?  Just type in Fuller-Thompson + ADHD, HERE on Google Scholar, or via https://socialwork.utoronto.ca/profiles/esme-fuller-thomson/

25:00 - Thank you Esme!

25:18 - “Thank you Peter for what you do for the whole community of people with ADHD. We all appreciate it!!”

25:28 - The Faster Than Normal book is still being printed, and this is awesome, THANK YOU and I’m so happy it’s helping!!!!  

26:07 - Happy Holidays!! 

Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Faster Than Normal is for YOU! We want to know what you’d like to hear! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to learn about, and from them. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

26:35 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits.

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat:

[00:00:40] Peter: High, high, high. Hope you're well. This will probably be last episode will be recorded before Christmas and the holiday break. I hope that you are all going somewhere warm or if. You are doing something that keeps you busy or maybe going somewhere cold if you live in a warm area right now, like to all my friends in Australia anyway, I'm not, I'm in New York City, it's 12 degrees or some crap like that. Um, I am getting outta here later in the week for about a week and, and gonna bury my head in the sand somewhere warm. So that's nice. Anyway, we have a g returning guest. We. Esme. Okay, I gotta stop you right here. Cause first of all, you understand I love this person. This person is one of the few people who's out there doing hardcore research on girls, women, and adhd. So I want to welcome back Esme Fuller Thompson, Dr. Esme Fuller Thompson. She's an incredible guest. We had her right, we think about God two or three years ago, I think it was pre pandemic. So it's wonderful to have you back as we welcome and you got tons of new stuff to talk about. 

[00:01:36] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Absolutely. And some of it is really positive because last time I came it was all about the negatives. And I still have some, I remember. Yeah. But I promised you that I had in the works, um, some research on flourishing among h adhd. So do you wanna start with the bad stuff or the good stuff? Which one? 

[00:01:52] Peter: Let's get the bad stuff outta the way. 

[00:01:54] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Okay, so, um, when I was with you, which I think was about two years ago, we were talking a lot about women with h ADHD which is dear to my heart. Um, I think it's a neglected population. People really haven't been looking at it, but we, we, in that time we talked about, um, depression and suicidality. But we didn't really know very much about anxiety. So I worked on a paper that came out, um, uh, almost a year ago on generalized anxiety disorder among A D H D and life. It, it's not too surprising that the rates are higher among people, um, with adhd cause life is anxiety producing because things are sometimes quite chaotic, right? So yes, indeed. Um, We found that people with A D H D had four times higher odds of anxiety disorders compared to their peers without

[00:02:52] Peter: Wow. Four times higher odds of anxiety disorders when you have ADHD. Wow. 

[00:02:57] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Yes. Yeah, so I mean, I was expecting maybe double, but. Four times and it's women. Insane. Were even worse. Women, women with a adhd were five times compared to women without h adhd. Now these are young, relatively young, like 20 to 39 year olds. And um, ooh, you know, that, that, that's hard. It's hard to, to manage. Uh, that doesn't mean that they actually have it necessarily at this moment, but they've had anxiety disorders. So some have overcome it, but, but it's, um, it's a significant barrier that, that a lot of people with a d h ADHD have to go through. And as I said, women have, um, a harder time with it even than men, even though women in general have higher anxiety., Women with ADHD proportionately are doing worse than women without ADHD compared to men with ADHD versus men without, so interesting. It's, it's, uh, it's a real issue and I think it's neglected. I don't think, I think the other behaviors, you know, the, the depression and substance abuse, those ones tend to get more attention, but anxiety can be crippling. And I think we need to think about it as, as clinicians and also as as people with A D H D and, and also people who love people with A D H D, that keeping an eye on that anxiety and thinking about interventions to help with it because there are some really good interventions. 

[00:04:18] Peter: I know for a lot of people who are getting help with A D H D and they're getting help, uh, you know, whether it's medication, whether it's, uh, D B T or whatever, you know, there are a lot of. What do you think the percentage of of psychologists or or therapists are that put together the link between ADHD and anxiety? 

[00:04:38] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Well, certainly I know with, um, some of my research on women and other people's research that women are much less likely to get the correct diagnosis and Right. So they might have, they, so sometimes they might be that anxiety or the depression or flagged and they haven't put it together that it's A D H D. If people are brought in young, uh, be maybe because of school related stuff for A D H D, they may not be screening for, um, depression or anxiety. So it's, I what I, my plug is if you have people presenting with anxiety and depression, think about A D H D. If you have, um, have patients or clients with a D H D think about depression and anxiety. Not that everybody has it, and we'll get the good news at the end. But it is more, much more likely to occur. And among those with, uh, among women are more vulnerable than men. But there's other things too. Um, low income is very anxiety producing, whether you have ADHD or not. 

[00:05:40] Peter: Wondering, and I completely, I mean that, that's a given. There's no question about that. 

[00:05:43] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Absolutely. But, People with A D H D may have harder time managing budgets and, and making sure that the money makes it all the way through to the end of the month. And so that, that's very anxiety producing. So now going from middle class to upper class, that doesn't make a huge difference. But being really close to the line and not having enough to make ends meet is desperately anxiety Produc. Yep. 

[00:06:11] Peter: I believe it. And what's interesting is that I think, you know, especially now in this sort of worldwide financial crisis we're in, you know, that certainly doesn't help. It's, it's tough enough when, when we're all doing moderately well,

[00:06:22] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Yes. Yeah. So, uh, I, now, my, I should have comment that my research is based on, uh, representative samples, but before the pandemic, right? So everybody got more anxious, more depressed, and more, you know, during the depress the, um, pandemic and being locked at home is. Great for people who like a lot of the stimulation and activities. So I'm guessing that these estimates are perhaps, um, underestimates of the magnitude of the problem in probably, yeah. The pandemic. So I, I, as I said, there'll be a while before we get that kind of information out, but it seems logical to think it's not getting better anyway. 

[00:07:06] Peter: Hmm. Unreal. Unreal. , but you said you had good news.

[00:07:11] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: All right, well let me just finish the other people at risk, cuz those are kind of Okay. More, more bad news. Let's go over that. More bad news. Okay. Um, so the, uh, people who had more close relationships were much less likely to have anxiety. So almost every study I've done in ADHD, social support, having a confidant, having, uh, a spouse on your side. All of those things are really, really protective. So, um, the idea of building and building a so social support network and reaching out to that network and investing in it really helps on all those fronts. Um, . And then the, uh, the other negative news in August in 2021, I published on substance use disorder. And we touched on this briefly, I think two years ago when we talked about it, but some people, uh, uh, we found that people with A D H D were much more likely to have had a substance use disorder at some point in their life. And we're looking at 20 to 39 year olds and. Almost half had a substance use disorder. I don't think that'll be too surprising to you having talked with so many of your guests, but Yeah, not at all. So the issue is, I mean, some people are able to consume in moderation, but people with A D H D are probably many of them. find Moderation a hard piece. It's kind of an all nothing piece. 

[00:08:35] Peter: People are able to, people with ADHD are some are able to consume with, what'd you say?

[00:08:39] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: With moderation? Say, oh, I'll just have a glass. But that's, 

[00:08:42] Peter: why are you, why are you making up words? I've never heard this word. Moderation. What is that? 

[00:08:48] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: So my point is that, um, among people with substance use issues and a D H D and impulse control issues, perhaps abstinence is a good strategy. Not, you know, some people can do it without the abstinence kind of piece, but, um, You know, it, it can get you into, if you have impulse control and drinking and drink, this is all types, uh, it's higher for everything, cannabis, uh, heavy drugs and alcohol. So, um, generally the. The idea is that, uh, A D H D makes it harder to manage, uh, substances in general and makes you more vulnerable to, um, addictions. So that makes perfect sense. Yeah, totally makes sense. So those are the bad news, but can I get to the good news? Can I share with you, 

[00:09:39] Peter: for God's sake? Yes.

[00:09:40] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: After all of this. Okay. So, So, uh, you know, I'm, I'm more than a quarter century into my career, and so I, I have spent the first 20 some years looking at negative things, depression, anxiety, um, uh, suicidality, and, you know, that's a bit of a Debbie Downer. When you go to parties and you say, oh, what do you do? I'm looking at depression, anxiety, thanks, geez. But, and then, but it's a little bit of. Whack-a-Mole Pro, uh, uh, problems, you know, that little kid's game where it's politics of course. Yeah. Very, uh, politically incorrect, where just spit poor moles on the head and yeah, one goes down and the other pops up. So, you know, here I am, I'm like, okay, I'm focusing on say A D H D and anxiety. And so, you know, you think about interventions and many really good interventions and maybe anxiety goes down, but depression pops up or maybe depression goes down and substance abuse pops up. So, um, I, I started thinking, well, I need to really look at it holistically. And if I said to you, how are you doing today? And you said, I'm not suicidal. Well, that's not really where we want you to be. We want you to be flourishing, right? So, um, I started looking around and there's an amazing researcher at Emory University called Corey Keys, and he came up with this concept. Excellent mental health. So when I ask you what does mental health mean to you? Not just it's, it's the absence of mental illness. Sure. But that's not really enough. Just not being suicidal or not being depressed. It's really more than that. So his idea has, Three pillars. The first one is, no mental illness in the past year. No substance dependence, no um, depression, no anxiety, no bipolar, and no serious suicidal thought. So that's a great place that's getting you to, that's pillar one is getting you to neutral, which is great. Um, and certainly if people are, are, are, have any of those issues, getting them out of that is, is your first plan as a clinician or as a family member. But then, then pillar two. How often in the last month have you been happy? And you have to say every day or almost every day. Like if you're just happy twice a week, it doesn't make it. And they also ask how, how often you are satisfied with your life and you have to be daily or almost daily. So you can see that one of you have to be at least one of these. So pillar two is happy or satisfied on an almost daily level. So no mental illness and you're happy and satisfied. And then pillar three is about psychological wellbeing and social wellbeing. I have warm and supportive relationships. Life is getting better for peace pull. Like me, I like most parts of my personality. And in the last month you have to agree to the majority of those six of the 11 questions. at least, uh, daily or almost daily. You have to agree to that. So this is really, really, really high, right? You're not mentally ill. You have no substance dependence, you have no suicidal thoughts. You're happy and or satisfied, and you have warm and you, you have great social or psych and or psychological wellbeing. Like, isn't this what we're hoping for? 

[00:12:54] Peter: Yeah, one would think, 

[00:12:56] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: all right, so among those with ADHD, this is a really, really high bar. More than two and five are flourishing, are absolutely flourishing, are hitting this incredibly high bar. 

[00:13:12] Peter: Interesting, interesting. That's more than two and okay. . I wouldn't, I would not have thought that , 

[00:13:20] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: neither would I. And in fact, when I talk to anybody else, they all say, oh no, it's gotta be 10% or something like that. But, and you know, some of the blame is to us who are researchers, cuz we've just focused on the negatives. Like I started the conversation with, but without looking at, well there are some people who are completely free of mental illness and are flourishing, and why don't we spend more time thinking about who those people are and how they got there and how can we help more people get to that point. 

[00:13:51] Peter: Really, really interesting thoughts. I, you know, it's interesting. I think that a lot of, and I mean, look, I, I'm not the doctor you are, but I think there's, I wonder if a part of the reason that people with A D H D tend to find themselves in positive spaces more often is because, , we're very, very good at changing the subject. In other words, we're in a bad mood for as long as that bad mood can hold our attention. . 

[00:14:16] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Okay, well, so fine. But, but at least, at least, uh, almost daily in the past month, uh, past week, months, uh, you have to have been happy. So you're saying the, it's the, uh,

[00:14:28] Peter: well, cause you have, you have to be happy 24 7. I mean, no one's happy.

No, no, 

[00:14:32] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: no, no. You have, just have to have happy. Right. Yeah. Or you have, you have happy moments. Oh, well then, now I have to admit that people with a d, ADHD have a much lower rate than people without H adhd. But I, my, what I was focusing on, and I think, I think partly as we said, because we do all this negative research about all the negatives, people feel that they are, they don't have in front of them our potential to flourish. That they, you know, that, that that is not a trajectory for them. And I'm saying, wow, many, many, many people are getting to that incredibly high level of functioning and just, you know, life is good. 

[00:15:12] Peter: Yeah. It's really, you know, it's fascinating. I think that that, you know, we spend a lot of time complaining. Oh, this is this and this. I mean, we got on the phone today, Peter, how you been? Oh my God, these last six months. You know, but, but in retrospect it's not bad. It's, there's day-to-day annoyances in the minutiae, but. , I'm here. I have my health. I'm, I'm, I'm my kid's doing well, you know, all those kinda things. I'm happy and, and I think that I at least look. Again, I'm, I'm looking at a sample of, of one or maybe two here, but I think that A D H D helps you stay happy because there's constantly something exciting. Something shiny just over the next hill. I know it sounds ridiculous.

[00:15:59] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: No, but life is, I mean, let's be honest, it's fun to hang around with people with adhd, life, Ising. Right? 

[00:16:06] Peter: Well, it's fun to hang around with people with adhd as long as those people with ADHD are on the right path or understand their path. I think that that there have been times when I've hung out with people who were probably undiagnosed adhd. You know, I take, I, I, I turn my head for a second. I look back and everyone's railing fat lines of cocaine. So I think that ADHD does have some negatives there in terms of the fun of hanging out with them. But yes, I mean, you know, my, my girlfriend tells me constantly that the reason, one of the reasons she, she, she loves hanging out is she never knows what's gonna happen next. You know, we're, we're sitting in a cafe one day and the next day we're flying somewhere because I read an article about a waterpark or whatever. So I think. You know, you have to, you have to sort of know yourself, but yes, I totally get that. 

[00:16:53] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Mm-hmm. , so, so again, this was based on a sample, a representative sample of Canadians prior to the pandemic. So I'm pretty confident that the way that data was gathered, it's a really solid national study. So I'm, I'm, I'm confident with those numbers. But I wanted to talk a little bit about what was a hindrance or a help. Apparently I looked at what, what we call the factors associated with A D H D. So what are the characteristics of those, sorry, factors associated with flourishing among those with A D H D. Okay. And so, alright, right, let's just talk about it.

Physical activity. I know this is one of your things. If you were pH physically active, they were four times more likely to be in the state of flourishing four times. 

[00:17:40] Peter: I'm sorry that that's just a, that's just duh. Of course you, you, you, you box for an hour. You go for a run, you're chock full of do you're high as a kite. Of course you're gonna be happier and at the very least you're gonna be happier. Cause, cause it's over, You did it, 

[00:17:54] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: but our, our lifestyle is not conducive to exercise. It's an effort. It's an organi. You have to be organized, you have to get out, you have to do exercise. The, the way you know modern life is it's easier to sit on your couch and it's hard to get that momentum to get up and out, but, Boy, oh boy. Four times the odds. This is, this is a winner. do not pass Go without exercise. Right. 

[00:18:21] Peter: Well, you know what's interesting and that brings up a whole nother series of, of questions. One of the reasons that A D H D you might argue, and again, uh, this could be an argument. One of the reasons a d ADHD has flourished in the past a hundred years, um, is because 300 years ago, 400 years ago, exercise was part of our daily life because we needed to exist. Right. We exercised cause we'd exercise, we wouldn't catch. The, the, the, the, the, the Saber tooth tiger and have dinner. Right? And then we discovered farming, and then we realized we didn't have to walk so much. So the the premise of, you know, having all your food delivered by a messenger, by a, by a, by a GrubHub, um, that's a relatively new concept for our brains. Our brains are, are very, very slow creatures. So that, that's a very, very big part of it. You know, I would be willing to argue that that ADHD or, you know, People were probably a bit happier back then because they had to exercise, they had to work out, or they didn't exist. 

[00:19:09] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Yeah, absolutely. So now it's an effort you have to put . Structured in your day that you're gonna get to exercise. But this is, you know, I almost never see odds this high, like do this four times. You know, usually something improves it maybe 20%. If you're really, really lucky, it doubles it. But four times. Wow. This is a keeper for sure. You know? Now. Um, the other thing that was really interesting, and I haven't done much research on it, but um, I'd love to do more people who use spirituality to cope with their day to day troubles. Were much more likely to be in complete mental health. 

[00:19:51] Peter: Say it. Say that again, slower. 

[00:19:53] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: So, people who use spirituality or religion, so it may be an organized religion, or it might be spirituality as well. Okay. And if it was very protective. So people who use spirituality were much more likely to be in this happy sat life, satisfied, mentally healthy space.

[00:20:10] Peter: Okay. I believe that if you think there's something bigger than you, regardless of what it is, 

[00:20:15] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: all right, now, the and. And also that you have something to turn to, right? So that you have some right, and it, it's concenter as well. I mean, I don't know exactly why. I just know when you had do these sort of survey research, you don't know the reasons, you just know the association. So, but, um, being married is very protective and I think that's getting back to the confidant, having people on your side, um, and possibly to stabilize you too . 

[00:20:43] Peter: Well, and you know.. There, there are, there, there are outliers of all different studies. Yes. Some not as, some, not as accurate as others, but No, I hear what you're saying. Um, I don't, I don't fit into that. But, um, I would, I would argue the caveat of with the right person., 

[00:20:59] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: right? I would definitely, um, and also, and I mean, being married or being in a, in a committed relationship kind of thing is helpful. Um, if it's, if you're right, if it's with the right person. And the thing is, when you do rep representative samples, usually the ones who aren't with the right person may no longer be with them. So I you don't see them in your analysis. Right. Um, now, Not, again, this is another no-brainer, but people who were in chronic pain were less likely to be in complete mental health. Now that seems completely obvious, but I was surprised how many people, these are relatively young people with ADHD are in chronic pain, perhaps because it risk taking behaviors or i, I don't know why, but, um, that's worth getting treated. You know, you've got your mental health stuff going on, but there's, if there's physical pain, Life is really hard and it's hard to be happy with it. Right. Um, and, uh, again, my poor women with h d they're less likely to be flourishing than men with h d, which is in keeping with all the, the higher prevalence of the negative things that we talked about earlier. Right. Um, so they're less likely to be all, um, completely flourishing. , you know, still many women were, but it's just, um, women with ADHD seem to be struggling more. Um, but there's a couple reasons for that. It's because, so remember I, this study was done almost 10 years ago, so women with a d d were not diagnosed very often. So I have a feeling that the women in my study who were diagnosed with adhd, they were probably fairly far along the spectrum with ADHD to actually get the diagnosis. So they may be. They may be, um, worse off than the av the average woman who would be worse off than the average man just because the people with milder symptoms would, uh, women can often, uh, mask the symptoms better than men because, especially girls, and so they were less likely to be diagnosed. So I have a feeling the women that we have, We're, we're pretty far along, and maybe that's why they're doing poorly. But it may be, it's just there may be less acceptance for women with ADHD related symptoms in society too. Um, we're still working on why women are vulnerable and trying to get a picture of that. But, uh, when more and more women are getting, um, diagnosed, I think there'll be, um, There'll be more understanding and more interventions. And then the other thing I just wanted to talk about, and I, I plugged this ev every time I talk to, uh, uh, you know, people with, uh, ADHD and any mental health CRI crisis. So even though though two 42% were doing really well that means that, you know, a little bit more than half had at least one of these other problems that that wasn't flourishing to the extent that they would like to, or we would all like them to. So, um, I just wanted to suggest that cognitive behavioral therapy, it's also called CBT is relatively short, relatively in inexpensive. It's a, it's a form of talk therapy. You can have it in a group session, eight weeks to 16 weeks, and it's been shown with people with A D H D and people with depression and people with anxiety and people with substance dependence. It's really, really helpful and what it does is it helps you capture your dysfunctional thoughts. So if you're telling yourself negative messages, which you may have heard in childhood, oh, you can't do this. You know, you're never gonna achieve. You tell yourself these types of messages many times an hour, that is gonna pull your, your mood down, your ability to function. So it helps you grab these thoughts and look at them objectively and reevaluate. And it can, it's, it really is kind of almost like you're reprogramming your own brain with more positive messaging, and that is helpful for, for almost every negative mental health outcome and certainly promotes better mental health. 

[00:25:02] Peter: No question about it. What a phenomenal interview. We're well passed our time but that was totally worth it. Thank you, Esme it's wonderful to have you back. As always,

[00:25:11] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: my pleasure. 

[00:25:11] Peter: You're welcome here anytime you want. Really, really good stuff. Thank you again for taking the time. It's, it's great to talk to you again

[00:25:18] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: And thank you Peter for what you do for the whole community of people with ADHD. We all appreciate it. 

[00:25:24] Peter: That means a lot. Thank you. Okay guys. Fast than normal is for you. And I got some good news actually. So it turns out that Faster Than Normal, the book, which most of you know about and have read and probably brought you here, um, is still printing. It's, it's gone into like it's fourth or something, printing, and I've written five books and all five books I've gotten advances on, right? Uh, progressively more and more money. And then this Faster Than Normal I get a really nice advance and I thought, wow, there's a really nice advance. There's no way I'll ever make it back because I've never made an advance back in any of my previous. I beat my advance for Faster Than Normal. So, so finally, like five years later, I am actually earning royalties and, and I owe that to everyone who has ever listened to everyone who has ever bought a copy of Fast Than Normal. Thank you. It means the world to me. 

We will see you again next week. We actually probably won't because next week is a holiday. We're probably gonna take a couple weeks off and we'll be back in the new year. We have, uh, sponsors coming up. We have new sponsors for the for the podcast. Lot of cool stuff. New guests, amazing guests, amazing repeat guests like Esme. Lots of people coming on the podcast, so, so stay tuned. As always, Faster Than Normal is for you. A D H D. All sorts of neurodiversity can be gifts as long as you know how to use them. Have a safe and wonderful holiday guys. We will see you soon.

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you in January- Happy Holidays!! 

Melissa Finkelstein is a New Jersey- based author, lawyer, and proud mom of three. Melissa has been writing and rhyming since she could form words. After graduating from Fordham Law, she began her career as a litigator in Manhattan. Because rhyming has always been her passion, she created a custom poetry business, Designer Rhymes so she could maintain that creative outlet. Once she had her son (7), and twin daughters (4), each with unique personalities and needs, the stars aligned for Melissa to publish her first children's book. Picky the Panda and the Tickly Tail is the first book in a series of three to come from author Melissa Finkelstein. Picky the Panda is a heartwarming story about a highly sensitive panda, which shares lessons of embracing sensory differences, practicing empathy, and recharging when overwhelmed. Picky the Panda was inspired by Melissa's daughter Skylar who has sensory processing disorder. Picky the Panda is now available on Amazon and in select children's bookstores. Enjoy! 

In this episode Peter and Melissa discuss:  

01:20 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:39 - Intro and welcome Melissa Finkelstein!

02:48 - So from Law to Children’s books; tell us your story!

05:40 - Isn’t it amazing what kids teach us. Are you finding that people are familiar with the topics in your book?

06:57 - What led to getting your daughter diagnosed?

09:30 - How old is she now and have all of your children read the book?

10:15 - Do you think that she’s beginning to, (or will), benefit some from advances in awareness, research, etc?

11:18 - What’s been the reaction and feedback to your book outside of the family?

12:00 - Is the book being used to explain to your daughter's classmates about Sensory Processing Disorder?

13:30 - On possessing supercharged senses

14:25 - How can people find more about you? Web: Everywhere fine books are sold

Socials:  @melissafinkelsteinbooks on INSTA

14:45 - Thank you Melissa!

15:02 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Faster Than Normal is for YOU! We want to know what you’d like to hear! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to learn about, and from them. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

15:41 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits.

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat:

[00:00:34] Peter: Hey everyone, how's it going? My name is Peter Shankman and this is Faster Than Normal. I wanted to see if you expected me to say it, try to shake things up a little bit. Okay. It is a Thursday here in a very cold New York City. We have to say a fond farewell to fall, which lasted about. Two and a half days, and we are most certainly into winter. It's about 34 degrees outside right now, sunny, but cold as hell. So I am inside with a sleeping dog and with Melissa Finkelstein. She's actually in New Jersey, but we are talking today because Melissa is a New Jersey based author, lawyer, and proud mom of three. She's been writing and rhyming since she could form words. Her words, not mine. After graduating from Fordham Law, she began her career as a litigator in Manhattan. She created a custom poetry business called Designer Rhymes. So here she is as a litigator. Did you, I, I gotta ask you later, remind me to ask you if you actually rhymed during court cases. Cause that would've been awesome. Mm-hmm. . But why are we talking to her today? We're talking to her. She has a son who's seven and twin daughters who are four. They each have unique personality and needs. That's where she decided to publish her first book called her first Children's book called Picky the Panda and the Tickly Tale. It's a first book in a series of three and Picky The Panda is a heartwarming story about a highly sensitive panda who shares lessons of embracing sensory diff differences, practicing empathy and recharging when overwhelmed, and I think we can all relate to that Picky The Panda- on Amazon and everywhere you get children's books. Welcome Melissa. Good to have you. 

[00:02:15] Melissa: Good morning. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for that intro

[00:02:18] Peter: And just in case you ever think that nothing good comes out of divorce. Melissa came to me through my ex, let me get this right, my ex sister-in-law. 

[00:02:32] Melissa: That's right. 

[00:02:33] Peter: My ex-step sister-in-law. Right.

[00:02:34] Melissa: I think you're stuck with her. I think she's just your sister-in-law still. 

[00:02:37] Peter: Yeah. My sister-in-law, she reached out to me and said, you know, hey, have a guest for you. I'm like, I didn't even know you knew I had a podcast. So good to know . Anyway, it is great to meet you, Melissa. Thank you for taking the time. So from law to children's books, tell us your story! 

[00:02:52] Melissa: Sure. So I've always been a writer and a rhymer, um, as I said, and that's really been my passion and that's kinda how I wound up in law. Um, I thought, you know, I'm really good at writing. I'm good at. Reading and problem solving. My skill sets seem to fit. I'm gonna go be a lawyer. It sounds pretty fancy and you know, I can have all this success and, um, I did have some fun and, you know, some fulfillment doing it, but I really missed like the joy and the whimsy of my childhood, to be honest. Um, so I toyed with the idea. Maybe I would be a preschool teacher. I know that couldn't be more opposite from being a litigator in Manhattan, but I really just wanted to use my creativity. My fun, you know, happy go lucky personality and doing like corporate insecurities litigation really didn't bring me that kind of joy. Um, as you might expect. And, you know, my life was all about disputes and I, I'm all about making peace. I'm like, what am I doing? Why am I fighting for a living? So this, this isn't bringing me joy anymore. Um, so all along, as you mentioned, while I was litigating, I had my little side gig, which just really was. You know, a passion project and bringing me happiness and it was creating custom poems for people for, you know, milestone occasions and that kind of thing. And I loved making others happy through my words. And so once I had my kids, I thought, you know, this is perfect. They're all so different. You know, they're, they learned so much from children's books and I think this would be a great outlet for me to use my words and. You know, I, I'm starting a series of three books, each of which are inspired by my three kids. So they're like my little muses at this point. Um, and in doing so, I'm focusing on what, you know, one of their biggest personality, um, pieces or struggles or challenges are to, you know, try to reach children like them. And in doing so, I wrote and published my first book, Picky The Panda and the Tickly Tale as you mentioned. And it is inspired by my little girl, Skyler, who has sensory processing disorder. And I didn't realize that by sharing her story, um, you know, I actually have become kind of a sensory processing disorder advocate and someone who is working. My butt off at this point to bring awareness to this condition and to what children like Skyler and um, like so many of your listeners might be experiencing. And that has been one of the most beautiful things to come from pivoting into my role as a children's book author. 

[00:05:22] Peter: It's interesting because, you know, I mean, first of all, I had some nursery school teachers who definitely could have been litigators, but, but that's neither here nor there. Um, , it's interesting, you know, you made that switch. Kids do that. They, they, they have this uncanny ability to take whatever you think is your thing and just completely flip it on its head. Um, the concept of sensory processing disorder much like ADD, a ADHD executive function disorder. Not a lot is known. And so bringing, I, I'm assuming one of the reasons you wrote the book was to bring awareness to sensory process. Absolut, what are you finding, um, when you tell people about it, what percentage would you say understand, oh yeah, of course. I've heard of that. Or, or, you know, is it, I mean, are you, are you, is it a constant battle with the teachers? Is it, how, how, how are you finding that to be?

[00:06:14] Melissa: It's becoming a much more wide spread. Um, you know, thing that people are aware of right now, but I think really the book shares this Panda's experience as being a highly sensitive, um, individual and what she goes through. And I think people are really relating to her experience more than they may have known or been aware of a diagnosis or a condition, um, called sensory processing disorder. So that's really been beneficial to me. Um, so yeah, I would say. I, I don't know. It's a smaller percentage than I would like for people to be aware of because it is a very real condition and you know, a very intense experience for those who go through it. 

[00:06:57] Peter: How did you discover that your, how did you get your d daughter diagnosed? What was, what was sort of the key takeaways that, that made you say, Hey, we should look into this? 

[00:07:06] Melissa: So she was in, so she's a twin. I'll start with that. So, um, I was constantly seeing her right next to her twin sister, and, you know, all kids are different obviously. So she was having a very different experience as a baby, a child than her twin sister was. So I think that helped make it more apparent to me that she was going through something and she was in an obvious discomfort and, um, just kind of unsettled a lot of the time. And, you know, I knew there wasn't anything medical going on with her because she, she was doing okay medically, we were bringing her to the pediatrician. Everything was fine, but I could just tell that she was uncomfortable. And my son at the time was in occupational therapy for a different issue that was going on. Um, and so I brought Skylar when she was one years old to this pediatric occupational therapist. Who I've come to know and trust and had her assessor and right away she said, this is something sensory going on. And to be honest, I was a doubter at first. Um, I didn't really know very much about sensory processing disorder or sensory sensitivity or any of that. And, um, I can tell you later that I've come to realize that I actually have a lot of sensory challenges myself, which I've learned through my daughter. So anyway, this pediatric, uh, occupational therapist evaluated her and right away she knew it was something sensory. Um, I watched the evaluation and I was like, you know, I don't know. I'm not really seeing it because she was, um, exposing to her to certain sensory, tactile, um, you know, things like sand and foam and, you know, different manipulatives that she could touch, and I thought she was fine. I'm like, you know, I see her getting her hands messy. But all along there were these little cues that were going on that she was able to pick up on. So just for one example, she showed me that while Skylar was, you know, digging into these Orbis, which are these like liquidy beads that children can play with, she was actually salivating and had like, Drool coming out of her mouth while she was doing it because her sensory system was just so overloaded, um, that while she was willing to do it, her system actually couldn't handle it. So that's just one example of how, you know, we came to be aware of it and then, you know, all the cues and clues just sort of lined up after that. And occupational therapy has been one of our greatest tools for her so far, 

[00:09:22] Peter: I'm sure. How old is she now? 

[00:09:24] Melissa: She's almost five. Okay. 

[00:09:26] Peter: And has she, has she. Do you read the book to her?

[00:09:30] Melissa: Yes. Yes. I, all my children have read the book and they love it. And my other two children wanna know when theirs are coming out and they are in the works. , 

[00:09:39] Peter: One of the things that I've discovered, um, uh, about sort of, ADD & ADHD when you're talking to kids about it, and so I'm assuming the same thing is, is truly is, it's all about how it's framed When I was growing. Um, you know, a ADD didn't exist. What existed was sit down, you disrupt in the class disease. And, and so I, kids our age, um, if they eventually got diagnosed had also had to overcome the stigma of 30, 40 years of being told they're broken. are you seeing with kids your daughter's age because of advances in research? Advances in, uh, awareness? They're not going through the whole concept of you're broken, they're not gonna have to heal from that. They can start looking at what they have as, you know, a difference as opposed to being broken. 

[00:10:36] Melissa: Yeah, I really hope that's the case, and I agree with what you said. Um, and one of the purposes of this book is to frame heighten sensitivity or. Sensory challenges as a gift. And I know that that's something that you like to speak about, um, in terms of adhd and I absolutely agree with that. Um, so in terms of heightened sensitivity, you know, yes, it can present struggles and challenges, but it can also be your greatest gift. It can be, you know, the way you use your imagination and can be creative the way you are compassionate and empathetic and can show love. So it can really be a strength. And that's one of the things that I'm hoping to share with children who may feel like Skylar, um, as term in terms of their sensitivity, 

[00:11:18] Peter: What's been the reaction or the, what's been the feedback to the book or the reaction to the book, um, outside of your family? 

[00:11:25] Melissa: Oh, it's been wonderful. I've been hearing from so many families saying, you know, we have a little picky at home. Um, you know, my daughter like, wants to read it every day. She feels like Pickalina so it, that's been the best part of this. When I set out to become an author, I just wanted to use my words to make children and families happy and, you know, provide them with a good bedtime story. I actually didn't have these higher goals of, you know, bringing such awareness. and acceptance to children with differences, but like that has become the greatest gift. And the thing that I'm most proud of and most excited about in my journey so far.

[00:12:01] Peter: Is the book being used, um, as sort of a way to explain to your daughter's, classmates about the different, because I imagine that much like ad although ADHD manifests in different ways, I imagine that sensory processing disorder must manifest itself in some ways that would make the kids go, what the heck's that all about?

[00:12:20] Melissa: Absolutely. So there's a page in the book where Picky the Panda um, has become so overwhelmed that she's feeling dysregulated and she's hiding under the table in her classroom, and she is rocking and crying because she is so overwhelmed and her body feels such big feelings. And the students. Who are her animal friends gather around her and they yell Picky. It's ok because you know, they're just trying to be kind and they're like, come outta the table, everything's great. But for her, everything's not great at that moment. So that, you know, that doesn't work for Picky and it takes different strategies to get her to be able to recharge and calm her body down. So I think, you know, empathy and understanding and realizing that we are all different is definitely one of the biggest messages. So, yes, to make children, um, and classmates who encounter kids like Skyler or who have other differences to be accepting and empathetic. 

[00:13:12] Peter: I like the concept of supercharged senses in the book because, you know, adhd, I consider it a superpower and I try to frame it as a superpower. So the concept of supercharged senses sort of seems very similar in the respect that you just have to, you know, if, if when I talk about adhd, I talk about the fact that. You know, most people are given Honda Accords for brains and we're given Lamborghini's, and so that's great, but you have to learn how to drive it, or you're gonna crash into a tree. You know, anyone could drive a Honda. You need training to drive a Lamborghini. And so I'm assuming it's the same premise with supercharged senses. I really love that term. 

[00:13:46] Melissa: Yeah, thank you. And absolutely, I agree with that. Something we have to learn to adapt to and adjust to. But like I said, it, and like you always say, um, it can really be seen as one of our biggest gifts. Very cool. So my daughter can, she's, you know, the first one to smell something stinky or she can see something a mile away. She can hear that train coming, you know, 10 stops away. So, you know, she really does have supercharged senses, but it also can lead her to feel very overwhelmed and heightened at certain times.

[00:14:15] Peter: Very cool. How can, so I'm assuming, yeah, it's available on Amazon, it's available everywhere. Um, how can people connect with you? Are you on Instagram? Are you on Facebook? 

[00:14:24] Melissa: Yes. So I am on Instagram at Melissa Finkelstein books. Um, and that is a great place to follow me. I'll have information about Picky the Panda um, sensory processing awareness and about my forthcoming books, um, the next of which will be out in early 2023. 

[00:14:42] Peter: Very, very cool. Melissa, thank you so much for taking time to be on Fast Than Normal today. I really, really appreciate it. 

[00:14:47] Melissa: Thank you so much. It's been wonderful. 

[00:14:49] Peter: Awesome guys. Check out the book. It is a lot of fun. Picky, I love, I love, I love the title Picky, the Panda and the Tickly Tale, talking about sensory processing disorder as supercharged senses. I love it. We back next week with another interview. This is Faster Than Normal. God, talk.. I mean fast- talk about fast, right? The entire year it's, it's almost Thanksgiving here next week in New York, it's gonna be Thanksgiving and I have absolutely no idea how that happened. And it's Christmas and it's New Year's and yeah, it's essentially summer already next year. So I dunno how we got there. But we will see you next week with another interview. Thank you so much for listening. Remember that neurodiversity is a gift, not a curse. And we are all on this train together. Talk to you guys soon. Stay tuned.

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Hey guys! Peter Shankman the host of Faster Than Normal here. I wanna invite you to something! I am hosting a Mastermind with 12 amazing speakers who are gonna be talking about everything from ADHD to mental health, from entrepreneurship, to just living your life better. It's gonna be on November 10th, It's gonna be virtual from anywhere in the world. Incredible, incredible speakers. The leading fitness trainer in Canada for all things. Me! A whole bunch of speakers- Scott Carney, who wrote the book which is to all about how he goes and takes ice showers every day. It's gonna be 12 amazing speakers, the CBS Early Shows’ Jennifer Hartstein, really, really great people. And I'd like you to join us. Check out the link below in the show notes at ShankMinds 2022 and we will see you there. And a matter of fact, look for the discount code in the show notes as well, that'll take a hundred bucks off the cost. We'll see you soon! https://shankman.lpages.co/shankminds-virtual-2022/  DISCOUNT CODE:  SMFriends22

—

Marc believes that finding your Vision and Purpose are the key to finding success, happiness, and fulfillment. Harvard-educated, he left a lucrative tech career for art school, founded the long-running online gallery Every Day Original, and has been mentoring and coaching creatives for over a decade. He now Coaches a wide variety of clients and helps them access their own creativity to fuel their next steps. He is now getting his Coaching certification and working one-on-one, in groups, and in his free online workshops to help people create a bigger vision for their life and career through Purpose-driven breakthroughs. He shares many of the how’s and why’s with us here today, enjoy! 

—— 

In this episode Peter and Marc discuss:  

01:20 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:39 - Intro and welcome Marc Scheff!

02:40 - Why did you give up a lucrative career in Technology to pursue a career in Art?

03:51 - So where did you study; how did it go?

05:10 - Why do you want to help people and how did you land on “vision and purpose”?

08:06 - Is it really as easy as “find what you love doing and the money will come eventually?”

09:37 - Freedom in work, can feel completely overwhelming

10:20 - How can people find more about you? Web: www.MarcScheffCoaching.com (or via www.CreativeAccelerationCoaching.com) and https://www.marcscheff.com

Socials:  @MarcScheff on Twitter INSTA and LinkedIN 

12:02 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Faster Than Normal is for YOU! We want to know what you’d like to hear! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to learn about, and from them. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

12:16 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

Hey guys. Peter Shankman the host of Faster Than Normal here. I wanna invite you to something! I am hosting a Mastermind with 12 amazing speakers who are gonna be talking about everything from ADHD to mental health, from entrepreneurship, to just living your life better. It's gonna be on November 10th, It's gonna be virtual from anywhere in the world. Incredible, incredible speakers. The leading fitness trainer in Canada for all things. Me! A whole bunch of speakers- Scott Carney, who wrote the book which is to all about how he goes and takes ice showers every day. It's gonna be 12 amazing speakers, the CBS Early Shows’ Jennifer Hartstein, really, really great people. And I'd like you to join us. Check out the link below in the show notes at ShankMinds 2022 and we will see you there. And a matter of fact, look for the discount code in the show notes as well, that'll take a hundred bucks off the cost. We'll see you soon! https://shankman.lpages.co/shankminds-virtual-2022/

—

[00:01:26] Peter: Hey everyone. My name is Peter Shankman. This is Faster Than Normal. You knew that though, cuz you're probably subscribed to this podcast and it doesn't really make sense for me to keep saying that, but I do it on every episode cuz maybe there'll be someone new today. Anyway, good to have you back for another week. Uh, we are going to start today's podcast with an interesting guest who believes that vision, finding your vision and finding your purpose are the key to finding success, happiness, and fulfillment. I wouldn't argue with that per se. He was Harvard educated and he left a lucrative tech for art school, unlike other famous people who have gone to art school, though he did not commit to, uh, doing bad things, he found the long running online gallery every day, original, and has been mentoring and coaching creatives for over a decade. I love that he focuses on creatives. He uses creativity to fuel their next steps. He's now getting his coaching certificate and working one-on-one groups and his free online workshops to help people create bigger vision for their lives and career through purpose driven bake, uh, purpose driven ba. Well, my God, what is going on? 

[00:02:24] Marc: You're going faster than normal Peter! 

[00:02:26] Peter: breakthroughs!! Geezus! Okay, that being said, say hi to Mark Scheff! Hi, Marc. Welcome! 

[00:02:31] Marc: Thanks, Peter. Great to be here. 

[00:02:33] Peter: Never interview someone. Friday at 5:00 PM this is what happened ! Nice to talk to you, so. What made you leave for, for Art school of all things. You just had this, this love and this passion for art, and you're like, Screw it. I'm leaving Tech. 

[00:02:49] Marc: Well, I mean, I always loved art. Like, like probably every artist says, but, you know, um, you know, I had a, I I grew up in a sort of, I don't know what you wanna call, is sort of traditional, uh, productive, focused household and, uh, certainly not one that understood to things like ADHD and a, um, you know, so when I went to Harvard, you have to pick your major in your first year. And I thought, well, I'll pick something that'll make me money. Cuz you certainly can't have a career as an artist. That's crazy, right? Um, so I, I studied computer science and I went and I got a job and I, and I said, Okay, I'm gonna take the art classes that I said I was gonna take and I realized, Oh, I, I really like this. This is really great. Um, so I started taking more art classes and more art classes. And my manager at one point, this woman Amy, who I, I sent a thank you note recently, um, took me aside one day and kind of offered me a chance to be, it's funny, offered me a chance to be a part of some secret upcoming layoffs. And I took it and I took a little severance and I put a down payment on my art, uh, my Art degree. 

[00:03:44] Peter: Wow. Wow. That's a, it's, it's always fascinating how those things happen because that's exactly how it always happens, right? It's always something out of the blue and random. Yeah. So where did you study? Where'd you study art?

[00:03:54] Marc: I studied art at the Academy of Art University in San Francisco. That's where I was listening and working in tech. Yep. Um, I had a, I studied illustration there. Um, I got my degree in the early 2000. Um, and you know, from there, and, and, and this is probably not unusual for your guests, I went on to do all kinds of things. I was a staff artist, I was a creative director, uh, you know, almost a founder of a startup. I, you know, I ran teams. I, I was on teams. I did a little bit of everything before moving to New York where I did a lot more, where I sort of discovered freelance and started doing more freelance stuff. And that's when I started really getting into kind of coaching and mentoring Artists. Cuz I was learning so much and I think, I think I read your book, um, which by the way, everyone should absolutely go read this book. It's, it, it, and you didn't pay me to say that. It's, it really was wonderful . I, uh, I got it and I, I actually listened to it and then I bought a copy and gave it to my wife and said, You have to read chapter six if you read nothing else. Um, you know, and, and so I, you know, when I go and I learn things, I, I get very excited about what I've learned and I wanna kind of pass it on. And that's essentially how I got into all this. 

[00:05:00] Peter: Very cool. Tell us about, So a lot of our guests come to me, you know, they say, I can't find my passion. I have no idea what my vision is. I have no idea what my purpose is. What am I supposed to be doing? You know, they're, they're 30, they're 40, and they're like, you know, I've just been cruising along and I don't know if it's the right thing. So you seem to have it down where, you know, if, if you say believe, finding your vision and purpose like you to find success, you must have a way to help people do that.

[00:05:19] Marc: I have a few ways, uh, . That's true. 

[00:05:22] Peter: Well, let's chat about that. Why, why, why vision and success versus anything else? 

[00:05:26] Marc: Um, well, vision and purpose. I, you know, vision and purpose, right? . I've been working, I've been working with this concept of purpose from way back in San Francisco when I started going to a, a weekly men's circle. And the purpose of the men's circle was to support men in living their purpose. Now, this wasn't some sort. You know, secret cabal. This was, this was really us all pushing each other to sort of bring our gifts to the world. And the way that we did that was we, we really worked hard to discover purpose, which we often boiled down to one or two words. What I've found, and in fact, I met with a client today who said, you know, who told me the, the work that we did, the work that we did, on discovering vision and purpose made all those other decisions that she was struggling with easier. Um, and as someone, you know, has someone who also manages, you know, ADHD or works with ADHD, you know, we have all these ideas. We have. We are like you say, faster than normal. Um, and sometimes it's like, it's like too much and it can feel overwhelming. So what vision and purpose does is it gets you down to really like the core of what you're doing on this earth in this lifetime. And when you're looking at, you know, literally what you should have for dinner, it can make that decision easier. Cuz you say, well, I'm the person. So, for example, my purpose currently is to unleash creativity. It's what I do in my coaching, whether they're an artist or a non-artist. I, I work with people to get creative around their, the solutions to, to their life. And so, uh, the, the way that. The way that I, the way that I work with people on that is I use various tools. I use various tools that, that probably a lot of different coaches know, but I focus in on that level of thinking because then when you come to these other decisions, you say, Well, what if my vision is this and my purpose is this? Am I really like a pizza guy or, or a fried chicken guy? I mean, it's not always that easy, but, but it can be

[00:07:11] Peter: Very, very cool. You know, it's interesting, the, the concept of purpose is something I don't think people are taught right there. There's, there's, and I, I've talked to teachers about this because, you know, there's this premise of you go to school and you learn what you're supposed to learn, which is never the right thing. You don't learn how to bounce a checkbook or, you know, how to do taxes, you know, But, but, and they always, they always, there's that one joke where the, the guidance counselor says to you, you know, figure out you'd wanna do for free. And that's what you should do for a. Like what you'd love to do. That's what you should do for, you know, what you, what you wanna do, what you love. And it never seems to work out. I, 

[00:07:41] Marc: I was, I have some, I have some issues with that. 

[00:07:43] Peter: can't tell you how many things I was supposed to be doing. Uh, you know, but I think that, that, that for kids coming outta school, they don't necessarily know. They've seen, especially kids today, they've, they've, they've watched, you know, uh, kids that of nowhere make millions on TikTok and, and, and create, you know, and they're confused. Cause they know, in reality it's, it's very, very difficult to do that, but, Right. You know, they also haven't been told anything else. Right. Right. And they don't know what their purpose is. And I don't necessarily know, you're supposed to know what your purpose is in your twenties, but it, it does become that question of at what point should you say, Here's what I love to do, here's what I wanna do, here's how I wanna change the world.

[00:08:16] Marc: Yeah. I mean, I think it is different for everybody. Um, you know, I have worked with people who have discovered that they actually wanna be doing something else for their work or something else with their free time or, or, or whatever. Um, I do think. And I'm in my mid forties. Um, and I do see a lot of people around this age starting to struggle with this question cuz we're, you know, if, if it's midlife, we're supposedly sort of halfway there and you start to think about, okay, well at some point I'm leaving. What do I want my legacy to be? And that's when I think a lot of people start thinking about purpose. I mean, some people come to it much, much earlier, but I have two, I have two kids, one's seven, one's 12. And you know, they don't , they don't grapple with that, you know, at all. So it's, it's quite. Thing to be dealing with at, I think at that, at that particular age. But at some point, like I said, you know, you, you know, you, you, you go so far and we don't live in a wor like, you know, my dad's generation and my dad included, you know, he, he, he's a doctor. He got a job. Somewhere, and he stayed in that job. You know, he maybe had a couple of jobs over the course of his career and did different things, but he was always focused on that, that sort of purpose, which, whether or not that was his core purpose, that's what he chose and that's what he stuck to. We now live in a world with the internet, with, you know, you can do, you know, you can do anything and be doing TikTok and Instagram and, you know, skydiving, uh, for example, um, as, as a, as a random example. Um, you know, and so we, we have all this freedom, which can be completely overwhelming. And that's where I think a lot of folks, at least in the communities where I work, we were start thinking about, okay, well if we can boil this down to something that is core to ourselves, and this is what I do in my workshops, it's what I do in my one-on-one coaching. It's what I'll be doing in my group coaching because I really, I, I've seen it over and it's not just a belief I've seen. The proof is is there, I've seen people and the people who do the work and, you know, do the writing and, and come and, and come up with something that is their purpose, that is their vision. They come back, you know, just really lit up and they say, I, I, I found focus, I found happiness. I'm like, you know, I'm like, I'm like dancing when I get up in the morning and I'm, you know, I didn't do that for them. They did it, but I, but I provide these, you know, these various frameworks for them to think through these.

[00:10:20] Peter: No, I mean, it makes sense. Tell us, tell people how we can find you. You know how, if they want to, if they, if they like what they're hearing, they say, Hey, this is something I'd like!

[Web: www.MarcScheffCoaching.com (or via www.CreativeAccelerationCoaching.com) and https://www.marcscheff.com  Socials:  @MarcScheff on Twitter INSTA and LinkedIN ]

[00:10:28] Marc: Um, well, you can find me. Uh, I'm, I'm on the internet in most places as my name Marc Scheff . Um, I, I am also an artist, so if you can find, you know, you can find my portfolio at Marc Scheff , but my Marc Scheff coaching is my coaching website. If you can't remember. Spell my name. You can just go to Creative Acceleration Coaching. And that just goes to my website. And there's, um, there's an opportunity there for a free coaching session. I, I like to do these free coaching sessions, um, because it's actually a filter for them and for me, Uh, if someone, first of all doesn't take the step to book the, the, the appointment, then you know, that's probably a good sign that, that they're not gonna, they're not gonna do the work. Uh, but also when we meet, I actually, what I do is I just coach people for. 30 or 45 minutes and give them kind of an overview of some of the different tools that I use. So I've had people walk out of that and say things like, you know, there's, you know, I, I got, I got great value out of that 30 or 40 minutes, and now I wanna know more. If, you know, if they walk away and it sort of fizzles out for them, then, then that's, you know, that's okay too. But it's a great way for people to, you know, I don't, I don't push sales. I don't, you know, at the end of the call I'm not like, Okay, you can commit now and there's a special deal and all this stuff.

[00:11:31] Peter: Right, right, right. 

[00:11:31] Marc: Yeah, I don't do any of that stuff cuz I really, in fact, I've had people say, Send me a PayPal. I say, actually I want you to, if you, if you want, if you write me an email in a week and still want it, then I'll do it. Exactly. Cause I want you to really like see if this lasts for you. If you're really still making progress on the work that you did in that 30 minutes, then we should totally, we should totally keep going. Cause there, cuz you're, I love that. Yeah. There's a connection. 

[00:11:53] Peter: I love that. Yeah. Very cool. Marc, thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it, that it's really kind of you. 

[00:11:58] Marc: Thanks for having me. Big fan of your work and just really glad to be here. Thank you. 

[00:12:02] Peter: Awesome. We'll definitely have you back. Guys as always Faster Than Normal is for YOU! We wanna know what you wanna hear. Shoot us an email. If you have any guests you think would work for us, peter@shankman.com, let me know. We'd love to get 'em on the podcasts. We'll see you next week. ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Stay safe.

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Hey guys! Peter Shankman the host of Faster Than Normal here. I wanna invite you to something! I am hosting a Mastermind with 12 amazing speakers who are gonna be talking about everything from ADHD to mental health, from entrepreneurship, to just living your life better. It's gonna be on November 10th, It's gonna be virtual from anywhere in the world. Incredible, incredible speakers. The leading fitness trainer in Canada for all things. Me! A whole bunch of speakers- Scott Carney, who wrote the book which is to all about how he goes and takes ice showers every day. It's gonna be 12 amazing speakers, the CBS Early Shows’ Jennifer Hartstein, really, really great people. And I'd like you to join us. Check out the link below in the show notes at ShankMinds 2022 and we will see you there. And a matter of fact, look for the discount code in the show notes as well, that'll take a hundred bucks off the cost. We'll see you soon! https://shankman.lpages.co/shankminds-virtual-2022/  DISCOUNT CODE:  SMFriends22

We’re visiting again today with Aron Croft who’s made some changes since our last visit on Episode 240, “The Un-Squeaky Wheel: How Inattentive ADHD Goes Under the Radar w/ Aron Croft” including developing a new way to help the community; enjoy! In his own words: Aron Croft has always been obsessed with one question: “Why can’t we get ourselves to do tasks that we WANT to do”?  That question was on his mind as he dropped out of college twice, failed out of his first 7 jobs and ended up broke, divorced, and earning minimum wage at 33. After an adult diagnosis of Inattentive ADHD and an M.S. in Coaching Psychology, he decided to abandon neurotypical productivity, and his life changed. He built a successful Fortune 500 career followed by a six-figure coaching business with over 125,000 followers. In his coaching business, he teaches ADHD’ers his contrarian 8% Productivity Habit, which helps them complete their top tasks in 2 hours a day and  never feel behind again. His work has been featured by  ADDitude Magazine, the Attention Deficit Disorder Association, and dozens of top ADHD outlets. To watch a 30 minute training on the 8% Productivity Habit, visit freeadhdtraining.com. 

In this episode Peter and Aron discuss:  

01:20 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:29 - Intro and welcome back Aron Croft!!

02:40 - Tell us what you've been doing since the last time you were on the show? Ref: 8percent Productivity Habit Method

03:20 - What is living in the country like for someone with a faster brain?

04:12 - Is spending time daily in the out-of-doors helping?

05:25 - How have you grown in this environment within the last couple of years?

07:01 - On embracing ‘measured’ change

08:11 - Aron explains his 8percent Productivity Habit

08:47 - “motivation, willpower, and discipline” These may only be neurotypical confines!

09:23 - There are other ways to win!!

09:53 - How do professional Boxers become so fast?

11:16 - On willpower and habits. Skateboarding can strengthen you!

14:13 - How can people find more about you? Web: hiddenADHD.com ALSO  freeadhdtraining.com

Socials: @aroncroft on Twitter  @HiddenADHD on Facebook  INSTA  YouTube and hidden_adhd on TikTok

15:07 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

15:30 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

Hey guys. Peter Shankman the host of Faster Than Normal here. I wanna invite you to something! I am hosting a Mastermind with 12 amazing speakers who are gonna be talking about everything from ADHD to mental health, from entrepreneurship, to just living your life better. It's gonna be on November 10th, It's gonna be virtual from anywhere in the world. Incredible, incredible speakers. The leading fitness trainer in Canada for all things. Me! A whole bunch of speakers- Scott Carney, who wrote the book which is to all about how he goes and takes ice showers every day. It's gonna be 12 amazing speakers, the CBS Early Shows’ Jennifer Hartstein, really, really great people. And I'd like you to join us. Check out the link below in the show notes at ShankMinds 2022 and we will see you there. And a matter of fact, look for the discount code in the show notes as well, that'll take a hundred bucks off the cost. We'll see you soon! https://shankman.lpages.co/shankminds-virtual-2022/

—

 

[00:01:23] Peter: Hey everyone. Peter Shankman, another episode of Faster Than Normal. Thrilled to have you here. Welcome aboard. We gotta repeat guest today Aron Croft was here by a year or so ago, and since then he told me that after he, he heard hisself on this episode, he's had to upend his entire life and he moved to a farm. And like, I don't know, I've got 10 acres of land and a chainsaw or something. I'll let him tell you more about that. But Aron Croft has is he was a great guest last time we have him back, and he's always been obsessed with one question, which says, Why can't we get ourselves to do the tasks we wanna do? He dropped outta college twice. He failed his first seven jobs. He ended up broke divorce earning minimum wage, days 33. Then he got diagnosed and then he got an MS in coaching psychology, and he took his neurotypical productivity. His life changed. He built a Fortune 500 career, followed by a six figure coaching business. He teaches ADHD 'ers his contrarian. 8% productivity hat. We'll talk about that. He's at free ADHD training.com and welcome back Aron good to have you, man.

[00:02:21] Aron: Thank you, Peter. This is, this podcast is always the most challenging one for me to be a guest on because it's like, it's so hard to be efficient and, and get everything done that you and I want to talk about in your episode. Cap. 

[00:02:37] Peter: All right, so let's let you start it. Tell us about yourself. Tell us what you've been doing since the last time you had you on. 

[00:02:42] Aron: Yeah, I mean, pretty much just buying 10 acres in a chainsaw. Uh, that's, that's pretty much it, that's taken up most of the last 12 months. Um, what have I been up to really, uh, formalizing, Um, my 8% productivity habit method. Which is really just about how do we get our top task done in just two hours a day. Like, we're not gonna suddenly become sort of full of motivation, willpower, and discipline. Like we've been trying that our whole lives and how do we do that so that we can just stop feeling behind? And, um, that's really what I've been focused on and working with hundreds of ADHDers and, um, now we're just, you know, expanding it out to more.

[00:03:20] Peter: Very, very cool. And tell me that I wanna, I wanna talk about living in the middle of nowhere or on 10 acres or whatever. What's that like for someone with a faster brain?

[00:03:28] Aron: Uh, it's so delightful because, you know, I can just, my brain is going a mile a minute all the time. It's so exhausting. I would love freedom and a break from it sometimes, but like when I go out, like we've got trails on the property and it's just, we're surrounded by just trees and nature and when I just, when I get outside, Um, it just quiets everything down, um, in nature. And so, yeah. So it's just been, it's been absolutely delightful. Um, and there's also like some mindless tasks like cutting, you know, cutting down branches with a chainsaw on the weekend. Like, I don't need to think. And it's very nice for me to not give myself like, cognitive tasks every once in a while.

[00:04:10] Peter: Yep. Are you enjoying, So is there, is there, would you say you're getting more outdoor time than you used? And and is that helping?

[00:04:20] Aron: I, you know, honestly I'd say that I'm getting about, I'm getting a little bit more outdoor time, Not a ton more, but the outdoor time absolutely helps. Like I, I mean, part of the reason we made the move is cause I was living in downtown Chicago and all I would do to leave the apartment was just go and walk in nature. And there was this cool nature path near us. So I'd say that I'm, I'm only getting a little more time in nature, but the other thing I really like is, um, space. Uh, so like you can't see it cuz it's off camera, but like, I literally commandeered the entire big, like what room would be a family room in our basement. I put up a 16 foot long whiteboard of just wallpaper, that's whiteboard wallpaper. Um, I mean, I've got like a studio set up with camera and lights and a nice microphone, and I've just got my shit everywhere. Like on the pasted it on the walls, the post it notes galore! I just love the ability to spread out and try to untangle this like super messy brain.

[00:05:21] Peter: Very cool. And what would you tell people that you've learned? How have you grown in the past couple years?

[00:05:27] Aron: I'd say, I'd say two things. So, um, one is just this idea of like, stop, like, like I, I, I've given up trying to be neurotypical. Um, and you know, that might sound obvious, but I work with a lot of ADHDers and they're still trying to be like what their parents and their peers and their teachers told them to be. And so one is just the freedom to give that up, um, and all the like self-compassion and acceptance that comes with it. And then on the flip side of that, right, and you know this in business, right? Is once I gave that up, um, And I was like, You know what? I'm not gonna be like, So you and I are a little bit different. Like I, I just have the inattentive ADHD symptoms. I wish I had some of the hyperactivity energy stuff, but like, like, I'm like a delicate flower. I burn out after like a few hours of like, I. Of like thinking work. And so I was like, Okay, instead of just saying that, that's like a weakness. How can I just build a productivity system around, around that? And um, so just doing those things and kind of embracing my limitations, quote unquote, has like, turned me into way more powerful than I've ever been. 

[00:06:43] Peter: It sounds like it might have. Um, It's interesting. I, I know a lot of people with adhd, they, they change is difficult; , Right? They get into a routine, they get into a habit, and then change becomes sort of a, a, a fear, right? You embrace it. 

[00:07:01] Aron: Um, I embrace, I embrace measured change. Okay. Um, because Right. It's, that's important. That's an important distinction. It is. Right. But like, but it, it's like so many things we don't realize that we're actually trying to. For two variables. And we're really looking for balance, right? We want, we want no change, but we also want lots of novelty and variety, right? And so we're, we're kind of, we kind of need to find that right balance. You know, I find so many people with their, uh, Productivity. They're like, I wanna get all my top tasks done. But I also don't wanna be forced into like Right. Having to do it. And I wanna like feel like doing them. Like I don't want it to be painful. And it's sort of like, okay, like if we can make explicit those like trade offs that we're trying to make, we can find a solution. That's the, that sounded theoretical. I feel like I'm just dabbling. Sorry, Peter. 

[00:07:53] Peter: No, no, it makes sense. So with that, tell me about the, uh, the 8% productivity habit. 

[00:07:58] Aron: Yeah, I know cuz clearly I'm obsessed with it. But , uh, I'm excited to have somebody to talk to about it that isn't my wife. Well, she's excited that I have someone you know today to talk to about it. Um, yeah, I mean, so it was really just, This concept. So the 8% is simply that like 8% of a 24 hour day is two hours. And I was like, All right. If I could just build a productivity habit, that meant that I could get away basically with just doing hard tasks for two hours a day, and then the rest of the day I can kind of just slack off and like wing it. Um, like if I could build something that would be effective, man, that would just give me so much freedom. And, um, so I tried to build it, and then the first phase of it is abandon neurotypical productivity. So all of us have been raised on this like diet of motivation, willpower, and discipline. And like you, Whoever wins is the one who wants it the most. And that's fine if your motivation pathways and willpower pathways work, you know, neurotypically. But for us, or at least for the inattentive, ADHD symptoms that I tend to work with with my students, um, it doesn't translate to action. And so we're left with, we're left with this really unfair conundrum. We either don't take action. Or we have a secret sauce, which helps us take action, which is we just flood ourselves with adrenaline, stress and anxiety, and suddenly we can do a bunch of hard tasks. Right? But it's like so mentally and physically and emotionally training,

[00:09:33] Peter: I believe that. It's interesting because it puts us back into that premise of imposters, right? If we're trying to do things in sort of like that one way that's supposed to be done right? You know, like what you said about, about going out and, and, and you know, the person who wins, the person wants the most, there are other ways to win . 

[00:09:55] Aron: Amen. My brother. Thank you. 

[00:09:56] Peter: You know, I, I, I find that, Well, even this morning I was, I was in a boxing class and I was training. It was one trainer who was training two of us, and we'd each do drills, uh, alternate on drills. And I was watching him, you know, so like 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off. And on my 30 seconds off, I'm supposed to be shadow boxing. And of course I wound up watching this guy. This guy is about. 10 years more experienced boxing than I do. And his punches were so fast, like, so fast, and, and it was like a blur. And I'm just staring at him. And of course the trainer's like, Yo, you wanna actually do something or you wanna just watch? I'm like, Okay, yeah, sorry, but I need to figure out how he got that fast. And he goes, he's trained, He's constantly repeating the motion and doing it over and over again and building those muscles and growing and. You know, so I, I hear what you're saying. It's, it's in that, in that regard. I'm sure he does want it, but I'm sure he is also lost a ton of fights. He doesn't want it the most, he's just doing it every day because it's something that makes him happy and excites him, and he is also getting better at it by default.

[00:10:55] Aron: I love, I love that you said that because, um, so like, because I. And just, I'm, I'm just like on like, honestly, like, I'm literally like the most like unproductive person at my core. Um, and I just have like almost no motivational, willpower discipline. So the work around though is kind of, is what you were saying though, that I discovered. It was like, if I just build something in a habit, then it kind of happens without really any motivational will power discipline. Right. And so, It's been this like side door to like sneak into like productivity, uh, without kind of the traditional things is it sounds like you've got some, uh, interest in habits as well.

[00:11:42] Peter: Well, I've always found that, you know, I always, because for ADHD I would always gravitate back in school. I always gravitated toward the things I doing because I enjoyed doing them and I. Specifically, One time I got off, I, I was up, I would always ride my bike, and then one time, one year I get into skateboarding, right? And I, I would skateboard, skateboard, skateboard for like a year and a half, two years, everywhere. I went to skateboard. Skateboard. And then one day case got back on my bike. And I was shocked at how much stronger my legs were. It wasn't that I'd been working out my legs, it's that I'd been skateboarding, I was working out my legs, but it didn't occur to me as that, Right. The things that you love to do are the things you naturally get better at because you're doing 'em so much because you love them. The the downside for ADHD is sometimes you have to do things you don't love and you still have to do them. 

[00:12:27] Aron: Well, and so the, the upside, so I agree with you and the upside is, um, so look, I believe, and, and again, all with the caveat that a lot of the things I'm talking about are limited to people that have the inattentive symptoms or combined adhd, Right? Um, but. You know, the cool part is that I believe so many people, and this is entrepreneurs, this is working professionals I've talked to, like, we're looking for something that would have like the biggest bang for our buck. Um, kind of like on the entrepreneur where they're like, I don't want to just trade dollars for hours. Like, Right, or hours for dollars. Like, I want something that's scalable and like, I want, I want like leverage effectively is what? You know, working professionals and stuff are saying. And um, the cool part is that I found is. A lot of productivity stuff focuses on like overhauling your life, right? Like you're gonna write down all your to-do lists and write down goals in every area, and then you're gonna time box your schedule and you know you're gonna do all these things. You're gonna make this color coded thing. And the reality is that there's a lead domino in there, which is if you just push this one piece, all these other productivity things fit, which is the piece that you just mentioned, which is. We don't suck at all productivity. We're great at like fire alarm tasks.

Exactly. We're even decent at like busy tasks. And the reason we're decent at them is because the area that we suck and that if we improve is the lead domino that knocks all the other dominoes down is in doing tough tasks. And if we can get, build a habit of doing tough tasks every day, suddenly they don't feel tough and our comfort zone expands. 

[00:14:13] Peter: Yep, a hundred percent. Tell us how we could find you. 

[00:14:17] Aron: Well, you could just drive out to Michigan and look for a house. 

[00:14:22] Peter: Quit being a smart ass Aron, how can we find you? .  [14:13 - How can people find more about you? Web: hiddenADHD.com ALSO  freeadhdtraining.com

Socials: @aroncroft on Twitter  @HiddenADHD on Facebook  INSTA  YouTube and hidden_adhd on TikTok

]

[00:14:24] Aron: All right. Alright. Um, I would say, I would say just go to free adhd training.com. I literally was like, How could I come up with the easiest to remember URL in the history of URLs? Not that help a reporter out.com isn't also memorable . But anyway, free adhd training.com and uh, I go into like a full training. It's free on the 8% productivity habit, what it is, how you can do it, um, and really break it all down with like pretty graphics and all the, my pretty bald head and all these fun things.

[00:14:57] Peter: Always love having you, Aron bald head and all. It was a pleasure. Enjoy your home, enjoy your 10 acres and your, your chainsaw. We'll have you back again. 

[00:15:06] Aron: All right, brother. Appreciate it!

[00:15:07] Peter: Guys, as always, we wanna know what you're hearing and we wanna know what you're seeing. If you have a guest that you think might be great, shoot us a note. Peter@shankman.com. Let us know, Tweet us, post us, Facebook us, whatever. If you like what you heard, leave us review. Thanks to Steven Byrom @stevenbyrom our awesome producer. We'll back next week, another episode. Stay healthy, stay strait on keep going on the path that is yours, and yours alone, and we'll talk to you. Bye 

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Hey guys! Peter Shankman the host of Faster Than Normal here. I wanna invite you to something! I am hosting a Mastermind with 12 amazing speakers who are gonna be talking about everything from ADHD to mental health, from entrepreneurship, to just living your life better. It's gonna be on November 10th, It's gonna be virtual from anywhere in the world. Incredible, incredible speakers. The leading fitness trainer in Canada for all things. Me! A whole bunch of speakers- Scott Carney, who wrote the book which is to all about how he goes and takes ice showers every day. It's gonna be 12 amazing speakers, the CBS Early Shows’ Jennifer Hartstein, really, really great people. And I'd like you to join us. Check out the link below in the show notes at ShankMinds 2022 and we will see you there. And a matter of fact, look for the discount code in the show notes as well, that'll take a hundred bucks off the cost. We'll see you soon! https://shankman.lpages.co/shankminds-virtual-2022/ DISCOUNT CODE: SMFriends22

Currently pursuing a Doctor of Pharmacy degree at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Camille completed dual Bachelor of Science degrees in Biochemistry and Systems Biology with honors at Virginia Tech in 2018. Breaking from tradition, Camille blew up the onstage talent competition with a highly engaging and entertaining version of the “catalytic decomposition of hydrogen peroxide,” winning Miss Virginia in June of 2019 and then Miss America in December 2019 live on NBC. While competing for the job, Camille Schrier wanted it known that “Miss America can be a scientist and a scientist can be Miss America.” Through her time as Miss America and beyond, Camille has focused on advocating for her social initiative “Mind Your Meds: Drug Safety and Abuse Prevention from Pediatrics to Geriatrics” with a major focus on the opioid epidemic, as well as for exciting youth in the areas of STEM. In 2021 Camille launched her own science educational brand, “Her Royal Scientist,” which furthers her goal to inspire and educate youth and normalize females in science roles. She also works to raise awareness around Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, a genetic condition that impacts her life each day. Today’s episode is important to literally anyone who has ever been given a prescription. Enjoy!

In this episode Peter and Camille discuss:  

01:26 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

02:14 - Intro and welcome Camille Schrier!

03:30 - Ref: Margaret Hamilton’s Apollo code

03:54 - Women in STEM [Science Technology Engineering Math/Medicine]

04:56 - On Imposter Syndrome and growing up in public education without many neurodiverse role models

05:47 - On a non “A+B+C= ‘this or that’” approach to goal-setting and systemic education

06:40 - There is no one ‘right way’ for everyone to do something. We are unique.

07:00 - How did you wind-up winning Miss America, was it a goal? A note on risk taking

09:17 - How did your initiative “Mind Your Meds” come about and get started?

11:00 - Eyes open about medication use in the collegiate community Ref:  Safe-RX

13:53 - So much about prescription drugs has become perception, not actual awareness of what they may, and may not do! 

15:40 - Adderall and co-morbidities

16:00 - Talk to your peers and kids, not everyone reacts the same!

18:00 - In the neurodiverse community we are even more at risk of addiction, if not misuse.

19:04 - How can people find more about you? Web: www.CamilleSchrier.com

Socials:  @CamilleSchrier everywhere.  Twitter  INSTA  FB  YouTube  LinkedIN

19:20 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

19:40 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

Hey guys. Peter Shankman the host of Faster Than Normal here. I wanna invite you to something! I am hosting a Mastermind with 12 amazing speakers who are gonna be talking about everything from ADHD to mental health, from entrepreneurship, to just living your life better. It's gonna be on November 10th, It's gonna be virtual from anywhere in the world. Incredible, incredible speakers. The leading fitness trainer in Canada for all things. Me! A whole bunch of speakers- Scott Carney, who wrote the book which is to all about how he goes and takes ice showers every day. It's gonna be 12 amazing speakers, the CBS Early Shows’ Jennifer Hartstein, really, really great people. And I'd like you to join us. Check out the link below in the show notes at ShankMinds 2022 and we will see you there. And a matter of fact, look for the discount code in the show notes as well, that'll take a hundred bucks off the cost. We'll see you soon! https://shankman.lpages.co/shankminds-virtual-2022/

—

[00:01:26] Peter: Hey guys. Peter Shankman here. Welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal, it is a thrill to have you as always. It is another Monday when I do all my FTN interviews for the month. We are talking to Camille Schrier today, and I will tell you a little bit about her in a second. Uh, as you heard from the ad, there is a conference coming up on November 11th. I would love to see you there. Um, there should be a discount code in the uh, show notes, use it. You'll get a hundred bucks off and hear from 12 amazing speakers and me, so if you haven't had enough, there's even me. So that'll be fun. November 11th, virtually wherever you are in the world. All right, cool.  It is Monday. It is gray and yucky outside, but that's cool cause we're talking to a ray of, of sunshine and light today. Camille Schrier is currently pursuing a doctor of pharmacy degree at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond. She completed a dual Bachelor of Science degrees in Biochemistry and Systems biology with Honors of Virginia Tech in 2018. Oh, and she was Miss America in December, 2019. Uh, so yeah, there's that. She won Miss Virginia and June, 2019. Miss America, in December of 2019. You've probably seen her on YouTube where her, on stage talent competition was an entertaining version of the catalytic decomposition of hydrogen peroxide. Very, very cool stuff. I actually had seen that on YouTube before she came to my attention. Uh, it is wonderful to have you here, Camille. Thanks for so much for taking the time today. 

[00:02:52] Camille: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me and making me sound way cooler than I really am in real life. 

[00:02:58] Peter: So, you know, you sort of broke the mold in that regard. You, you, you came up and, and you said, Okay, I'm gonna show the world that girls can be scientists, right? That, that women can do these things and it doesn't, You can mix and match. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I always look back at. Amazing photo from NASA where I was, when I was serving on the NASA Civilian Advisory Council. They sent me this, they showed me this photo. They have framed, it's the woman who wrote the majority of the code for, uh, the Apollo 11 landing. And, um, she's standing on a, uh, next to a stack of code that's literally like taller than her, right? And, and it was just, You know, you never Yeah. A woman did that. And, and I love as a, as a father of a nine year old daughter, I love that, you know, I'm talking to you and I'm gonna have my daughter, Jessa listen to this podcast because you're showing girls, um, my daughter's age and beyond that there is so much they can do. There's nothing they can't do, and, and you're doing it a lot better than me, as her dad ever could. . 

[00:03:54] Camille: Well, thank you. And I think even more than that, I mean, we know that women can be scientists. There's probably more women than ever Yeah. In STEM careers. But I think one of the things that I have realized as I've progressed through my own career is that it's not always normal to see a very feminine woman, exactly. In the sciences, and maybe women feel like they have to conform to kind of be like their male counterparts or maybe are afraid to express their femininity in a lot of those fields. And so bringing the science into something that is traditionally a feminine role like Miss America was a really interesting way to break that mold open even more, and show people that you can do whatever you want. And I think that's something that even defies gender is just embracing who you are and doing it on purpose and being fearless in every single thing that you do. And so hopefully it inspired, um, young girls, young men and beyond. 

[00:04:54] Peter: Well, it's interesting you bring that up because one of the things about ADHD is imposter syndrome and, and this concept that, You know, you are consistently broken and no matter what you've done, it's all been luck and you don't really have the skill to do anything. And I grew up with that, um, uh, through no fault of anyone but my own. I mean, you know, my parents were, were constantly supportive. But, you know, I grew up in an environment, in a school system, uh, public school system, which was, you know, you're different. And so you're being, you're being, uh, uh, uh, you're disobeying and, and you're, you're breaking the rules and you gotta be like everyone else. And it took me probably till. You know, late thirties, uh, to, to sort of get over that. And I think that, that, um, the more role models we have who can show that there is no one way to do anything right, I think is, is better for the world as a whole. And I see that, I see that, uh, you know, with, with what you've done. I see that more and more today, which gives me a little bit of hope. 

[00:05:47] Camille: I think we do need that because we're, we're taught to follow directions. Yeah. Right. And that's what we're seeing at, That's how we are shown success is, is you do these certain things and you get success. If you go through a certain amount of education, if you do these leadership activities and get extracurriculars and get a certain gpa, then you get X, Y, or z. And I think that often as young people working on this formula, that's not necessarily allowing us to embrace what makes us unique. Sometimes we can do that in that situation, but it's often really hard. And I've struggled because I want to do things the right way, but there is no right way to do things. I've always been really focused on doing things, um, at the most, at the highest level of achievement and success and getting to a certain level. Um, but I've forgotten a lot about what I want in that, and I think imposter syndrome is so real in what I have experienced. My becoming Miss America wasn't a longtime goal. I literally signed up for a competition that was two weeks away that went to Miss Virginia. And I was like, This will be fun. Let's do it. . And I won. And then eight weeks later I won Miss Virginia and six months later I won Miss America. And I was like, how did I end up here? Right? And did I deserve this? How? How did I. How did I successfully make my way through this in doing something that was totally different than anyone else had done before, but actually winning Miss America by doing something vastly different than anyone else had done was the best reward in taking a risk and doing something different than I had ever had in my life. Yeah, because I was always afraid to take a risk because what if it goes wrong? Right. But ultimately, if it went wrong, I would just come home as not Miss America. Exactly. So, The odds were pretty good to have a good experience, and it rewarded my creativity and my ability to try something new that then set me on a path to wanna do that more in my professional life.

[00:07:48] Peter: Well, that's one of the things that I try to explain to, uh, people, you know, especially the kids. And, and you know, when they, when they read my book and then, and they, they reach out is, you know, the concept that, that, that being the, the, the worst, the biggest risk it said is not taking one. Right. And, and the concept. you can do something and fail or you cannot do it, and you'll be in the same place if you failed. Yeah. So the only option you have that breaks you out of that is to try it, you know? And I, I love, I love that. Cause I think that that, you know, again, I didn't have that mentality. It was funny. I didn't have the mentality as a kid yet. I was always different. So it was like I was, I was fighting, I was swimming upstream, I was fighting against that. And once I embraced it, You know, the whole world opened up and so I sort of think you're doing that as well.

Um, so Miss America can be a scientist and a scientist can be Miss America. I love that. Tell me about, um, mind your meds. So, you know, when I was growing up and we talked about the offline, when I was growing up, the, uh, the concept of medication for ADHD or anything like that, really. Kids didn't really take meds. Um, they took medication if they were sick, I get, get penicillin, right? Whatever, you know, or Sudafed and I, but it wasn't, I, I grew up, I guess in an earlier time in the eighties we didn't have that. We had cigarettes and um, you know, I once I, and they were healthy back then, so it's fine. But, um, you know, I look at, I look at. Today I have, I have, I have friends who have kids in college and, and they're like, Yeah, the, the kids, the kids pass around, uh, Adderall, like it's candy. And, you know, that's not necessarily a good thing. Um, so talk about Mind Your Meds. Where did it come from, the concept? Uh, how, how'd you get to where it is? 

[00:09:16] Camille: Sure there's such a huge problem related to pharmaceuticals and medications in the country. And as a doctor of pharmacy student, I wanted to choose a cause that I would represent as Miss Virginia and Miss America that was something I was passionate about, but also something that I felt like would affect every person that I came across, that would be relevant to every individual in some way. And I feel. All of us have either taken a medication or have known someone who's taken a medication in their lives. We all have kind of lived that or taken even just a over the counter medication at some point. And when I went through my pharmacy education, I started to realize how easy it is to make mistakes, to take things improperly, the dangers of medications that are even over the counter. Let alone things that are prescription or controlled substances, the risks that can come along with those things, and how we can really do things that are very easy to prevent, um, harm and misuse and things that damage our communities essentially. So I wanted to focus on medication safety as one big piece of what I do. But then on the other side, there's also an issue with substance use disorders in this country. With stimulants, with opioids and many other substances, um, both prescription and illicit. And I saw more and more of that as time went on. Now I spend a lot of time talking about the opioid epidemic, which is one that has just drastically increased over the past 20 years for a lot of different reasons, but is really running rampant, uh, in our communities and is, is killing people at a level that I've, I never would've anticipated, but is really sad. So, Looking back at kind of all of the things that I have gotten to do. You mentioned stimulants and when I was growing up, I can't really even remember a lot of my peers taking stimulants for, for diagnoses like adhd. Now I went to school, like elementary school, middle school, in the early two thousands. So a little bit after, but still not that long ago I do feel like as time has gone on, it's become more popular. Right? Um, and. I will say when I got into college was the first time where I really saw medications being misused in my, with my own eyes. And it was always stimulant medications. And I think as someone who's looking at ways, uh, That people can be proactive with medication safety. I feel like if you have a prescription medication, especially controlled substance like a stimulant, you have to be a responsible steward of that sub of that substance. It is your responsibility to take control of that and prevent others from potentially being harmed by that. And so I've actually teamed up with a company called Safe- RX who produces locking pill viles. Mm. And that's just like an easy tool that I can recommend to families to kind of secure these medications, either at home or or students taking them to college. I talk a lot about children accidentally taking medications because they don't know what they are. They think that they're candy, making sure that you are locking up medications, keeping them up and away from children, being a safe steward of medications. These are all things that can not only keep people safe, but prevent misuse, prevent substance use disorders from coming up in our communities. It's all a cycle, and I think that it needs to be talked about more. It's not really an educational topic that I heard a lot about when I was in school and that I still don't really hear a lot about. And so I think, you know, as a pharmacy student, pharmacists have such a unique perspective and role in being a medication safety expert, and that's why I'm excited to be a pharmacist as well.

[00:13:06] Peter: That's a wonderful answer. I remember in the eighties, uh, you'd come home from school at like 3:00 PM and you'd watch like cartoons or whatever, and there was always a really, really bad. Like cringy commercial called pills aren't candy. And I don't know if you, I don't know if you had that in the 2000's by the way. I, I, I died a little bit when you said, you know, I, Yeah, I went to school in the two early two thousands. I just, I'm sorry. Died a little bit . Um, I had, I had someone I was watching, uh, TikTocs with my daughter and, uh, There was one where a woman goes, uh, you know, the, the older generation on TikTok, you know, the ones like born in the late nineties. I'm like, You, we, you're, 

[00:13:39] Camille: I've seen that it even made me cringe 

[00:13:41] Peter: everyone's app, right? Yeah. I'm deleting off everyone's phone right now, . But um, but yeah, no, I remember the we are not candy thing and, and it's, and it's true. I mean, as a, you know, I had the conversation with my daughter years ago, you know, this is anything in a bottle that looks like this or whatever. You don't, you don't take anything you don't know. You don't take anything. I haven't. Yeah. And, and, um, the interesting, interesting thing about the lock. You know, I wonder if it's, if it's also a peer pressure thing in the respect that, oh, you know, dude, can I, can I score that off you, can I tell, you know, score real, And it's a, kids that I've talked to don't necessarily look at it as medication. They look at it as a, as finals help. You know, there's a difference in, in, in how you look at it. 

[00:14:20] Camille: I think that you're absolutely right and that's how I saw it used in students that were trying to stay up all night Yes. And study, and that it was really a commodity instead of a prescription medication that genuinely helps people Yeah. That have disorders like ADHD and is extremely effective in that. Um, I do feel like what you're saying is very true and, and potentially even putting something in a container like a locking pill vile could mentally even make that seem like less of a commodity and something that should be protected. Um, and obviously I don't think there's studies along what that impact might be for students, but I think just looking anecdotally, that would be something that I'm sure that my peers probably would think differently about when I was in college. Uh, instead of just this, Oh, can I get one of these off of you? Which really surprised me, even though I'm a little bit straight edge to begin with. But seeing students talking about in group messages of like, Oh, does anyone have an Adderall? I have an exam tomorrow. Um, Really bothered me to my core because I just felt like it was so wrong. Um, and so risky from a medical perspective as well, because patients and students that have comorbidities who maybe they don't even know that they have yeah, an issue, maybe they have an undiagnosed cardiovascular problem that they don't know about, and taking a medication could, could really be detrimental for them. There's so many things that go into making sure that a medication is right for a patient. But if that, that's why these medications are prescription, because there's a prescriber that's evaluating all these different things. And I really wanna stress if there's parents listening, to have those candid conversations with your students about what the, what the ultimate risks of this medication could be for them and for other people around them and the importance of keeping that to yourself. And the also the importance of not taking anyone else's medications. Especially I have to, to emphasize in the time of fentanyl. Yeah. When we are not sure what is in any pill that we take, we aren't sure that a pill that someone gives us is actually from whatever they say that it's from. It could be a pill that was produced, uh, not in a pharmaceutical manufacturing facility that could be cut with fentanyl and could lead to an overdose. There are so many risks taking any type of medication or any substance from anyone I believe. Playing Russian roulette right now. And so that's a continued conversation outside of just protecting your own prescription, but emphasizing to everyone, students, children, adults, and beyond that we have a huge problem in this country with opioids and with fentanyl that is now coming into other pieces of, of the, um, kind of drug scene maybe in the stimulant sector with, um, methamphetamines and beyond, which is a deadly, a deadly consequence that could happen. And I, I hate to be dramatic and I know that sometimes I sound like a broken record in that, but it's a one decision that you could potentially make that you cannot correct. Right. And that is something that I really emphasize to everyone that I meet because it's, it really. It goes beyond just, Oh, I made a mistake and I'm gonna apologize. And it's unfortunate. So, uh, I do think that it's so important for us to not only be safe stewards, but have those conversations, have candid conversations with people, um, because these medications are also really difficult to get, specifically when we're talking about stimulants, right? And part of those reasons that they're difficult to get is because people misuse them. And so, uh, not contributing to that and making it more difficult for people that need those medications to access them, um, that's not gonna help us. 

[00:18:05] Peter: Well, what's interesting about that is, you know, especially, um, when you are neurodiverse, when you're a d d, when you're adhd, studies have shown you have much higher, uh, addiction prevalence, right? And, and so putting yourself deliberately, putting yourself into harm's way in that regard is something kids don't think about in their, you know, late teens, early twenties, and, You know, look down the road 10, 20, 30 years, where do you wanna be? So, there's no question about it. It's really, really cool. Camille, I, I gotta, we gotta cut it off for time, but I would love to have you back at some point. This is wonderful. 

[00:18:36] Camille: Oh my gosh. I would love to come back and talk about this. Thank you so much for having, uh, a great conversation about, uh, these issues. And they're so, they're so prevalent and I, it really upsets me that we, we see this growing rather than getting better. But I think having conversations like these are the way that we end.

[00:18:52] Peter: How can we, uh, how can people find you? 

[00:18:54] Camille: So you can find me on any social media platform at Camille Schrier my first and last name. Uh, you can also find mr at www.camilleschrier.com.  [ www.CamilleSchrier.com @CamilleSchrier everywhere: Twitter  INSTA  FB  YouTube  LinkedIN]

[00:19:04] Peter: Awesome. Camille Schrier, thank you so very much for taking the time.

[00:19:07] Camille: Thank you!

[00:19:08] Peter: Guys as always. We'll back next week with another amazing interview. Our thanks to our guest, Camille Schrier our thanks to Steven Byrom who produces this end every episode, and is just an awesome all around human being and I hope you have a wonderful week. We will see you guys soon. Take care.

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Hey guys. Peter Shankman the host of Faster Than Normal here. I wanna invite you to something! I am hosting a Mastermind with 12 amazing speakers who are gonna be talking about everything from ADHD to mental health, from entrepreneurship, to just living your life better. It's gonna be on November 10th, It's gonna be virtual from anywhere in the world. Incredible, incredible speakers. The leading fitness trainer in Canada for all things. Me! A whole bunch of speakers- Scott Carney, who wrote the book which is to all about how he goes and takes ice showers every day. It's gonna be 12 amazing speakers, the CBS Early Shows’ Jennifer Hartstein, really, really great people. And I'd like you to join us. Check out the link below in the show notes at ShankMinds 2022 and we will see you there. And a matter of fact, look for the discount code in the show notes as well, that'll take a hundred bucks off the cost. We'll see you soon! https://shankman.lpages.co/shankminds-virtual-2022/. DISCOUNT CODE: SMFriends22

—

Cool interview today with a content creator and health care provider who is recently diagnosed with ADHD, yet survived school without knowing what was going on with her brain! She turned to the internet to let people know that they are not alone, and to be helpful to others! A little more about our guest today in her own words:  Karrisa Cardenas is a mental health content creator, Singer songwriter, entrepreneur and the host of her very own podcast called “Finding Your Mind” and of course shares her life through the lens on her YouTube channel. She has faced many challenges in her life along side her ADHD such as depression, anxiety, daddy issues, abuse and so much more.  She has used all she has been through as inspiration to keep creating, creating for those who don't have anyone to go to and are facing these challenges alone. She shares her dark times to bring awareness. Letting those who listen know that its okay not to be okay and there is a light at the end of the tunnel, its just going to take a while to get there. Little back story on my life. I grew up very fast at a young age, had to take care of my mother most of my life and my father was never in the picture. Throughout my younger years I was faced with traumas that shape who i am today, which is why i create content around mental health and ADHD, i never had anyone to tell me what was going on with me so i had to figure it out all by myself. I didn’t have the luxury of doctors to help me. I was simply on my own with my mind. How scary, but also so freaking beautiful. Those were some tough years to go through but man on man am i such a wonderful human because of it. I have had my fair share of jobs such as coaching cheerleading, installing stoves and pools, Retail, Fast food, Waitressing, Barista, Nursing Assistant, Assistant manager of a non profit, and no i didn’t get fired from these jobs i quit because my ADHD was bored after learning everything in those positions. A few fun facts about our guest:  Never reads the last chapter in a book. Chocolate milk + popcorn always. Sits criss cross apple sauce in chairs. From a small town called Kelso. Left handed -which is a super power too. Enjoy! 

—— 

In this episode Peter and Karrisa discuss:  

01:26 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:45 - A note about the Boxing command: “duck!!”

02:22 - Intro and welcome Karrisa Cardenas!

04:51 - What made you want to share your stories with the public?

06:20 - On what happened after she first shared

07:00 - Haters gonna hate. How did you press forward?

08:52 - Karrisa, wise beyond her years and dealing with bad words people say

10:20 - On wishing healing

10:48 - How do you come up with your ideas for content?

11:53 - How often to you post? You grew up “social”, but how much of your life do you actually share. How do you set up boundaries?

14:00 - You’ve had all sorts of jobs. How do you make a living, or how did you starting out?

16:00 - On having a back-up plan/safety chute

16:46 - Are you a night owl and why do you have to chase popcorn with chocolate milk?

17:49 - We are kind of unique in that we both are doing this to help others. Where does this come from in you? Why do you do this?

20:04 - How can people find more about you? Web: LinkTree  Finding Your Mind Podcast

Socials:  @karrisamarieofficial on INSTA  Facebook and YouTube

20:27 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

20:55 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits 

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

Hey guys. Peter Shankman the host of Faster Than Normal here. I wanna invite you to something! I am hosting a Mastermind with 12 amazing speakers who are gonna be talking about everything from ADHD to mental health, from entrepreneurship, to just living your life better. It's gonna be on November 10th, It's gonna be virtual from anywhere in the world. Incredible, incredible speakers. The leading fitness trainer in Canada for all things. Me! A whole bunch of speakers- Scott Carney, who wrote the book which is to all about how he goes and takes ice showers every day. It's gonna be 12 amazing speakers, the CBS Early Shows’ Jennifer Hartstein, really, really great people. And I'd like you to join us. Check out the link below in the show notes at ShankMinds 2022 and we will see you there. And a matter of fact, look for the discount code in the show notes as well, that'll take a hundred bucks off the cost. We'll see you soon! https://shankman.lpages.co/shankminds-virtual-2022/

—

Welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal. My name is Peter Shankman. I am thrilled to be joining you today. I am a little more hyper than normal. I just took, literally just came back from a boxing class over at Victory Boxing, Victory Boxing on 37th Street off of 10th Avenue and holy. Um, it's normally, I, you know, you get one of the coaches one of the day. No, this was the owner who's a pit, or, Hey, let's, let's spar for a bit. Kicked my ass. Into next week. So I am high as a kite on dopamine an adrenaline right now, but oh my God, in three hours, I'm not going to be able to move. He's like, you know, it's funny when you're, when you're, when you're boxing and you're thinking about that next punch, whatever you all you hear are like the punch calls. And he's like, you know, he's like, um, jab cross, left hook, right hook upper cut, left upper cut right. And then he throws duck. And you're staying like an idiot who goes, Oh, is there a duck somewhere? And you could hit in the side of the head. So it has been, it was a fun hour, but oh my God, I'm gonna be hurting in a few. So anyway, with that said, thrilled that you're here and I want you to meet Karrisa Cardenas, so I might be on Instagram. As you know, as a matter of fact, both my mother and my daughter's mother, I'm pretty sure called Child Protective Services on me this morning because I videoed with a 360 Insta Cam I video. I put it on top of my helmet and videotaped or, or, or recorded, uh, the 2.7 mile scooter ride that I take every morning when I take my daughter to school and. You didn't realize how scary that ride is until you look at it on a 360 video and you're like, Wow, that truck nearly killed me. That other truck nearly killed me. Oh, that's 17 trucks. Oh, there's a school bus nearly, and a city bus nearly killed me. So, yeah, I'm pretty sure that that Child Protect service is gonna bust in any minute and, and take my daughter away from you. But either way, it was totally worth it and great video. So I'm on Instagram a lot. I love creating content, and of course I love absorbing content, and Instagram knows this and they treat me, uh, incredibly well because of it. In other words, they, they cater to my wants and my needs because it means I stay on longer like a good little boy, which is exactly what they need for their advertising. Well, that being said, I came across Carissa Cardenas. She's a mental health content creator. Okay? She's a singer songwriter, entrepreneur. Hosted a very own podcast called Finding Your Mind, and she shares her life through the lens, through the lens on her YouTube channel. She's faced a ton of challenges in her life. She has depression, anxiety, and this is her words, Daddy issues, abuse, and so much more. And she's used all of this as an inspiration to keep creating, to create for those who don't have anywhere to go and don't have anyone to talk to and are facing those challenges alone. I love this. She shares her dark times to bring awareness, letting those who listen know that it's okay not to be okay. And even though it might take a long time to get there, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, she tells me, I'll talk to you about her backstory. I'll ask her about it and I'll let her speak in a second but she, she has a really interesting backstory, um, that has shaped who she is. And, and I think it's wonderful. And she, she put fun, I love when people do this in her bio, she put a bunch of fun facts. So we're gonna read the, the last five minutes, we're gonna two minutes. We're gonna read those out and have her define those. Karrisa, welcome to Faster Than Normal!

[00:04:24] Karrisa: Hello.

[00:04:26] Peter: I am thrilled that you're here. I love the videos you create. They're so honest, they're so straightforward, and I, I first found you because I'm, I look another ADHD creator and I'm like, Goddammit, another ADHD creator who's getting like 20 times as many likes as me, and this is pissing me the hell off. So obviously we'll talk about how you're, you know, what your, what your system is because you're, you're creating incredible content. But what originally drew you to say, Hey, I'm gonna tell my story in public and, and, and love it or hate it here it is? 

[00:04:54] Karrisa: Uh, well, to be honest, uh, in 2015 is kind of where it all started and, uh, I started making video content on Facebook actually. And, uh, I started that because I was very alone growing up. And I faced all these traumas and these issues throughout my life that I just felt so alone and I didn't go to therapy and I didn't know what was wrong with me. Everyone told me that I like, had issues and I was so, you know, angry and all these things. So I just felt very alone and very scared. So I decided one day to pick up the camera and, well, it's actually my phone. It was my, I think it was with my flip phone to be honest, and I started recording on it. And I was like, You know what, I'm just gonna share like a diary. So I sat there and I shared all of my, uh, daddy issues and my anxiety and all that stuff in like different video forms. And this was when I was like, what, 18, 19. So I was like going through it and I, I recorded everything in my vehicle and and I sat there and I was like, you know, I'm gonna do this for other people because I never had help and I never, you know, got anyone. Relate to, and so I just decided one day I was like, I'm, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna scarily share everything that I've been through, even though it might be tmi. I just need someone else to hear it. 

[00:06:18] Peter: And it sort of blew up from there. 

[00:06:20] Karrisa: Yeah, so it went from that and then of course, you know, doubts and insecurities got into into my bloodstream and it decided to, uh, make me not post for a while. And then I decided, okay, this is really what I wanna do with my life. So I decided to start a podcast instead cuz it was just so much easier than having to edit video and I always have to look nice on video, so I just decided to do it, podcast, and then it started to slowly take off and then it did randomly and I was like, Holy moly, this is it. Uh, I really gotta, I really gotta do this now. You know? So it was really awesome. 

[00:06:55] Peter: You know, it's interesting, let talk for a second about you stopped creating content when you started getting like, what haters and things like that.

[00:07:01] Karrisa: Yeah, I, I stopped as people would just tell they were ugly. They were so ugly.

[00:07:07] Peter: Now here's the thing, I mean, that's not, that's never changed. I mean, I, I posted that video this morning of the ride to school, and then I went and into my boxing class and I came out and they're like, About 20 comments and at least four of them were like, Oh, I'm never coming to New York. Fuck New York. There's a, you know, it's full of Democrats. Okay, well, you know, you're obviously meet people like that. And then you get the, Oh wow, you know, we gonna put your kid in the harm's way in the middle of the time, square traffic. I'm like, Okay, I'm much better scooter than you, whatever. But, you know, I, I feel, I feel like I'm 50, right? I, I've had 20 years of giving corporate keynote speeches in front of 20,000 people where I. I'm still kind of, I'm mostly over the haters, but you never truly get over them. You're a lot younger than me. Tell the audience what you did to get past it. Because that the haters and the, and the, and the, the, the, um, trolls, they kill about 95% of the, of the people who wanna create content and they just stop. And they don't wanna do that. And they, they, they leave a lot of stuff, beautiful stuff on the table, never wind up doing. 

[00:08:04] Karrisa: Well, uh, yeah. I also was doing YouTube too, so I got all those like, hate comments. You should die. You sh you're ugly. You know, all of those beautiful things at a young age. So, um, I just kind of sat with myself and I really focused on what I wanted to do as a person and who wanted to be, and I had to realize that no one else's fucking opinion, excuse my language really mattered. And I had really had. Hone into myself and really believe in myself and really just not care at all about what anyone else has to say and just hyper focus on that and not even, I didn't look for comments like probably the first two years I got back into it because I was like, I don't need their opinions, whether it be good or not. I never replied to anyone's comments. I just focused on what I wanted to do. 

[00:08:52] Peter: Let me ask you a question if you don't mind sharing how old are you?

[00:08:54] Karrisa: I'm 28. 

[00:08:56] Peter: That is, I gotta give you such props for that because I remember I started my first company at 27, 26. Mm-hmm. and I sold it, it was a PR firm. I sold it at 29 to a larger agency. And I remember even at 29 thinking like the news went out that it was sold and there were all, you know, Oh, he probably couldn't, he probably just sold it for like, for nothing cuz you know, he couldn't, couldn't keep it up. And his parents probably like, you know, gave him money to start it and it. I remember, I remember like it was yesterday, reading that comment and being like, Wow, I must be nothing. You know? And, and this took years. It took years. I probably, I'm 50 now. Maybe, maybe a couple years ago I really stopped caring as much as I can. But you're still gonna care a little bit. I mean, it's really, I give you a lot of credit for that. It's really impressive. At your age to be able to get past that.

[00:09:42] Karrisa: Yeah. It's, it's a difficult thing though. And I mean, there it is always gonna be here. Like, it's even gonna get worse the bigger you get. Like it's just the way the world works. Yeah. But since I kinda, I grew up in, in social media, to be honest, uh, I started just to see, you know, these empty comments I like to say, because, you know, those people are going through stuff on their own and they're just using, you know, their hate towards you for comfort in a way. And it's just, it's an ugly thing. But I've, I put my. I mean, I put myself in their shoes to make sure like, Hey, listen, you, you know, they're probably suffering from anxiety, traumas, like all of these things. And you know, they're just hating. They shouldn't, but they're just hating. Cause that's all they know.

[00:10:20] Peter: Right. Don't, don't wish anger on them. Wish, wish, wish, healing. 

[00:10:24] Karrisa: Yeah. That's, that's just what I do. 

[00:10:26] Peter: That's impressive. Again, that's really impressive. I still, I mean, I wish healing on them, but I still go to the boxing gym and beat the show to some bags every you, every day. Of course. Gotta do that. 

[00:10:33]Karrisa: Of course.

[00:10:34] Peter: So, let's talk about the kind of content you create when you, when you're posting mental health. I mean, there are a ton of mental health, you know, content creators out there and not, not the majority of them are not getting anywhere near as well as you. Um, So do you listen to your audience? Do you take advice from your audience? Do you, do you, do you listen to their feedback and incorporate that into future posts? How do you come up with your ideas? 

[00:10:54] Karissa: Uh, I honestly haven't done that. Like I get a lot of, uh, messages about saying, you know, like all the things that I've posted that have helped them or, you know, opened their eyes or something like that, which is so amazing. But I kind of just focus on what I feel at the time. So I'll be sitting, let's just say I'm at, sitting at my desk and I just have this urge to talk about a specific topic. I'll just do it. At random. Like, I haven't got to the point where I, like, I take feedback yet just because I want to, I want to stay with this momentum that I've got, and usually feedback with my ADHD and everything makes my brain go freaking nuts. Uhhuh. Like, I just, I can't focus. So then I'm like, Oh crap. Did I say the right thing? Did I do the right thing for these people? Or they, you know, So I just hyperfocus on like what I need to say first, and then of course I, I listen to you know, comments later down the road and kind of incorporated into the next content I do create. But I mean, just hyper focus on, you know, how I'm feeling that day, to be honest. 

[00:11:53] Peter: How often are you posting, uh, daily? So that brings up another interesting question. You, you said yourself, you're a child of social media. You grew up in this era. Um, you know, know, I, I thank God every day that camera phones and things of that nature didn't exist when I was in high school, I'd probably see somebody in jail and, you know, for you. You're, I guess it is perfectly normal that everything you do mm-hmm. is public. Yeah. Now, but here's a question. It looks like everything of what you do is public to what percent of things that you do are public? Like, you know, I'm sure you still have a private life that you don't necessarily share.

[00:12:27] Karrisa:Yeah. Uh, I would say I only share about 10%. 

[00:12:31] Peter: And how do you, do you set up boundaries for yourself so that you don't overshare or that you don't, You know, I, I remember probably 15 years ago writing a multi tweet Twitter rant, and this is before you could like, collect, connect, the tweets was much harder. And it was basically me bitching about something that I, I really didn't need to be bitching about, and I sent it and learned a valuable lesson that night. Right. You don't necessarily need to share every damn thing. Yeah. So how are you, how are you aware of that? What are you doing to make sure that you're, you know, okay, this is something that might be interesting, but I'm not gonna sit here and bitch for the next three hours about whatever.

[00:13:04] Karrisa: Uh, to be honest, I . I wish I had more of a filter. Uh, but I don't, And so the only thing that I really set boundaries towards is talking about politics, to be honest, because, you know, it's just one of those things that I just don't wanna get into on, you know, the internet because I would just get wrecked to be honest. So I just kinda set boundaries with that and I just, Almost everything. I am very open. I'm an open book, and if people hate it, they hate it because there's, there's people out there that are suffering through things that, you know, if they don't have the connection with other people that they can talk to. So it's like, I'm gonna share all the ugly parts and this is more so when I. Was younger. So I'm sharing all of those issues, the abuse and stuff so that it could connect to the right people so that they can live a another day, to be honest. But, um, other than that, the boundaries I set are just political .That's it. 

[00:14:02] Peter: Tell me about, so you've had several jobs. Yes. Right. And then I love this coaching, cheerleading, installing stoves and pools, retail, fast food, waitressing, barista, nursing assistant, assistant manager of a nonprofit. And no, and you make it clear, No, I didn't get fired from these jobs. I quit them all because my ADHD was bored after learning everything in those positions. So, yeah. And I get that. I had one job in my life and I'm like, No. But, um, you know, after, after the sort of magic wears off, right? At some point you gotta make a living. Yep. So what then? 

[00:14:33] Karrisa: Uh, well, I, I guess I don't really share this, but I will. Um, so I do a lot of content creation, and I do get paid from all of that stuff, but, uh, I, I do have a core job, which is taking care of my mom, so I. Right now I take care of my mom and so I'm a certified nursing assistant. Okay. And that has been the, you know, the bill paying money, the I'm gonna be okay and I can step back and work on all of these things and Gotcha. You know, it, it's, it's a blessing to be honest, cuz not everyone gets to do this. Oh, totally. Or does a lot of people have to take care of their mom at a young age. So, I mean, like, that's kind of, you know, where, where I'm at, like, I don't work, other jobs anymore. I just create and it's so beautiful and I'm so blessed about it.

[00:15:19] Peter: You know, it's interesting. I, um, I, I, I look at my, I I look at a lot of kids who are, who are, you know, influencers, whatever, whatever they wanna call themselves. I hate that term. And, um, you know, they're, they're, they're creating all this kind of thousands and tens and thousand likes and thousand likes. And occasionally they, they, they do a partnership with someone or whatever. And I know the, I know the industry. I know damn well. Yes. They're not making enough for a Starbucks once a day. No. Right. With that. And yet you'll never see that, You know, you'll never, you'll never, uh, hear about the fact that, you know, they're, they're also working, uh, you know, 8:00 PM to 4:00 AM as a security guard or doing whatever just to pay the rent. Yep. Right. It's like the, um, Uh, the real versus Instagram, whether, you know, the, the, the Instagram is like everything is beautiful and then the camera pans over to the other side of the room where it's just like a mess. Yep. Right? And so it, it's interesting because you have a lot of people who are out there trying to create content and I would never tell anyone not to do it and give it a shot, kick ass on it. But I would say have a backup plan. Yeah, I, And it seems, it seems like you managed to pull that off. You do have a backup plan.

[00:16:17] Karrisa: Yes, I always do. I think it's just a security thing for me because, uh, growing up I didn't come from money, so having a backup plan has always been a thing. Like, I've been to college twice. I've been, you know, just thinking, Okay, what am I gonna do if this doesn't pan out? What if I'm, you know, like, but I have to also believe in it a hundred percent, or I'm not gonna give it my all. And I. So it's kind of like that fine line where you're like, Yes, I need to pay my bills, so I will work a nine to five, but I need to bust my ass doing the rest of this. 

[00:16:46] Peter: Right. Are you a, um, are you a night owl? Yes. . I noticed that I, I saw the email came in around 2:00 AM so I figured, um, 

[00:16:58] Karrisa: Yeah, Sorry about that, heh.

[00:16:58] Peter: Why do you have to eat? And this, this goes to the, your last paragraph. Why do you have to have chocolate milk when you eat popcorn? That's a weird combination? 

[00:17:04] Karrisa: Oh, . Well, okay, see, Um, I don't know where it came from. I've always been a, a child of weird combinations and, uh, I just, I can't have popcorn without it because I don't know. I need to wash it down with something sweet and chocolate like so amazing. And when you pair the two, it it hands down the best. No one would try it. No one ever tried it. They're like, 

[00:17:26] Peter: I'm gonna try. I'm totally gonna try it tonight actually. I have some of my kids chalk the milk. I'm totally gonna try it.

[00:17:30] Karrisa: There you go. I love that. Lemme know. 

[00:17:32] Peter: And by the way, you're lefthanded as am I, as our most amazing people, so 

[00:17:36] Karrisa: for real ?That's awesome actually.

[00:17:38] Peter: I love that. I love it. Always drives my boxing coach crazy cuz he always says he, he takes his original position and I go left. God damn it. He has to switch around. Yep. So, so I guess I'll, I'll, I'll close it with this. I wanna be respectful of your time when you, you know, you're creating content and putting stuff out there in a world, especially in social, that isn't always that nice if ever, Right? Mm-hmm. and looking at the stuff that you're talking about, which is mental health, you know, from the beginning, um, tells people that yeah, you've had your share of hits in, in your life. You've taken some hits, you've had some issues, you've had some problems. Yet your goal in all of this, it's still to help people who, who are never able to get help for this on their own. Yeah. And that's really kinda altruistic. Right. Most people are kind of like, No, fuck you, man. I'm gonna get mine. And, and, and you know, I'm gonna get it. I mean, we live in a world right now where, where 15 governors are trying to stop, um, uh, student loan debt cancellation because everyone should pay their own share. I'm like, Well, that's a dick move, right? Yeah. So, so you're sitting here going, No, I wanna help people out. And that's the exact same reason I, I wrote Faster Than Normal and do this podcast, but there aren't a lot of us. So at the end of the day, Your value system is, is pretty unique, right? You're sitting there going, No, I wanna help people. And and does that come from anyone? Did that come from what, what, You know, based on, on the history that you told me about yourself that you shared, um, it doesn't sound like you were helped a lot. So where'd that come from? 

[00:19:05] Karrisa: Uh, that's exactly why is because I wasn't helped a lot. I wasn't guided and I wasn't told that what I was going through was normal or you know, cuz my ADHD was, I, I did, I just got diagnosed with it in 2020. So like I didn't have help realizing that, oh my God. Like I went through school and stuff thinking I was so stupid because I learned a different way than other people, but I never knew that, so no one told me. And like I just had to go through the motions of doing things alone. So when I got a little older to understand what I was actually facing. And I started doing research on my own. I was like, there are so many other Me's out there that need help that don't have the finances for it. And I was like, maybe I can just share some of my stories and it could help. And it's just helped me too because it helps me get out of my head and it creates this community of amazing people that need help. And I'm just here and I'm just like, wanna give everybody a hug? And I just want people to be better mentally and understand that it's okay not to be okay. 

[00:20:04] Peter: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Very, very cool. Very, very cool. How can people to find you?

[00:20:10] Karrisa: Uh, they can find me on Instagram at Karissa Marie Official. You can find me also on YouTube as Karissa Marie and also my podcast, Finding Your Mind. 

[00:20:21] Peter: Very cool. Leave all those in the show notes. Thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it today.

[00:20:25] Karissa: Thank you so much for having me. You're awesome dude. 

[00:20:28] Peter: Guys, Faster Than Normal wants to hear what you think. Let us leave us a note, shoot me an email. We've gotten a lot of guests because you guys have written in and said, Hey, talk to this person. So if you have any people, we should talk to peter@shakman.com. You know how to find me. We will see you next week. ADHD as Karissa has blatantly showed us today, is a gift, not a curse. And I will say that until the day I die. Stay tuned, keep in touch. We'll see you guys next week. Stay safe.

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Hey guys. Peter Shankman the host of Faster Than Normal here. I wanna invite you to something! I am hosting a Mastermind with 12 amazing speakers who are gonna be talking about everything from ADHD to mental health, from entrepreneurship, to just living your life better. It's gonna be on November 10th, It's gonna be virtual from anywhere in the world. Incredible, incredible speakers. The leading fitness trainer in Canada for all things. Me! A whole bunch of speakers- Scott Carney, who wrote the book which is to all about how he goes and takes ice showers every day. It's gonna be 12 amazing speakers, the CBS Early Shows’ Jennifer Hartstein, really, really great people. And I'd like you to join us. Check out the link below in the show notes at ShankMinds 2022 and we will see you there. And a matter of fact, look for the discount code in the show notes as well, that'll take a hundred bucks off the cost. We'll see you soon! https://shankman.lpages.co/shankminds-virtual-2022/  DISCOUNT CODE:  SMFriends22

--

Southern California-born and bred Maitland Ward has quickly become one of the biggest stars in adult entertainment, after an-already successful career as an American model, actress and cosplay personality. After finding fame in the ‘90s on CBS soap The Bold and the Beautiful and smash ABC sitcom Boy Meets World, as well as a plum role in 2004’s cult classic White Chicks, Ward decided to shake things up with racy social media content, sexy cosplay and appearing at fan conventions before making the leap into the adult film industry in 2019. The statuesque (5’10”) all-natural redhead is unique in that not only is she beautiful and built for the adult biz, Ward’s talent as an actress means she can also carry dramatic and comedic scenes with ease. Her playful energy, professionalism and open sexuality earned her an exclusive performance contract with Vixen Media Group and the famous face of the brand’s blockbuster studio, Deeper.

In 2020, Ward won three AVN Awards for Best Supporting Actress, Best Three-Way Sex Scene-G/G/B for her work in Deeper feature Drive and Favorite Camming Cosplayer. She also won three XBIZ Awards for Crossover Star of the Year, Best Actress-Feature Movie and Best Sex Scene-Feature Movie, also for Drive.  In 2021 she scored two AVN Awards as well: Best Leading Actress for Deeper’s Muse, as well as Best Boy/Girl Sex Scene for Higher Power, plus two XBIZ Awards for Best Acting-Lead and Best Sex Scene-Feature for Muse, and in 2022 she took home two XBIZ trophies for Best Acting-Lead for Muse 2 and Performer of the Year.

 Ward’s recent mainstream endeavors include starring and co-producing a TV series, The Big Time, taking on a lead role in psychological thriller Just for You and releasing an eye-popping no-holds-barred memoir about her wild life in the entertainment biz, Rated X: How Porn Liberated Me from Hollywood. 

 

—— 

 

In this episode Peter and Maitland discuss:  

 

00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:00 - Intro and welcome Maitland Ward!  IMDB bio

01:38 - So you’re here in NYC promoting Rated X; let’s talk about that!

02:00 - Despite all of your success at such a young age, you were not happy. Why?

04:00 - A lot of positive things have happened in the culture of Hollywood and beyond

04:45 - On hiding who you are, and why. A note on fear.

05:25 - When did you first realize, then decide you needed a change?

06:15 - About getting married an moving to NYC

06:50 - On figuring out that you’re different

07:18 - Peter on how he explained to his father how he was quitting his day job

08:08 - When did you decide to make the switch from ‘mainstream to ‘adult’ film? How did your peers react?

09:15 - About double standards

09:45 - Peter on breaking stereotypes for New Frontier Media at The Wall Street Journal

10:55 - How did it go when you started dipping your feet more into rated R, rated X Art?

12:28 - On building a fanbase in real time

14:00 - About her first full length feature and how that evolved 

15:00 - How do you deal with the haters, how do you not focus on the bad reviews, trolls, etc?

15:55 - A tip about fan mail of any sort

16:55 - What’s next for you?

17:35 - My how things have changed in twenty years, or even thirty!

18:52 - What do you do to get out of your head, to clear and re-center?

19:54 - Do you have any rituals or habits that must happen every day or else?

20:21 - How can people find more about you? Web: https://onlyfans.com/maitlandward

Socials:  @MaitlandWard on Twitter  INSTA  FB  and @Maitlandtoks on TikTok

Shout out to Brian at BSG Public Relations! @bsgpr on Twitter

20:57 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

21:21 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits 

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

[00:00:41] Peter: So Maitland, thank you for taking the time. I know you're on a busy schedule with your book tour in New York here.

[00:00:46] Maitland: Yes. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:00:47] Peter: How is New York, uh, treating you so far? 

[00:00:49] Maitland: It's, it's been great. It's been a whirlwind, like, meeting with everybody and like, you know, just doing all of the, the. publicity, I guess you would say. It's, it's kind of like a machine. So I, I'm really having good time, but it's been very busy.
I hope to have a little more like downtime to, to little freedom to go explore. More freedom.

[00:01:03] Peter: Yeah. We're, we're a good city. We're coming back. You know, Covid was a bit here, but I did not, I could have least how many people are here now. 

[00:01:11] Maitland: Yeah. It's definitely came back. Cause I had come, uh, to film something like a, I guess it was a little over a year ago, and, It was pretty bad. Yeah. Things were shut down. 

[00:01:20] Peter: Still in, I'm at the point my daughter's, my daughter's class, like half the kids and their parents like went to their second and third homes and all that. Right now they're all back. I'm like, I'm like you. I kind of feel like you should pay an extra 50% tax on everything because you went down, left your most right.
You left us right. But yeah, we're coming back. It's nice to see the city getting, getting back into form. We're, we're a good place. Um, so you're, you're here promoting burning rated X. Yes. Let's, so let's talk about that. So you have. The majority of people in Delta Entertainment, you have backstory, you have a history.
You came, um, in mainstream media, right? Yes. You started Boy Me World. Yes. And, and of course White. It's one of my favorites because my friend Marlon's in it. That's so cool. And, and you know, you, but you weren't happy. 

[00:01:59] Maitland: Yeah, it was an interesting thing because I started acting very young, uh, like 16 years old. I was on a soap opera and, uh, it was, it was a whirlwind experience at the time, but I really felt like I had to be a certain way all the time in Hollywood. Like I had to be a good girl. I had to, you know, be straighten narrow, like really, you know, be nice. That was a big thing. Be nice, and it, I think that was a dangerous thing for a Woman to be taught, like make them like you be nice. So, um, so I was, but I felt like I was always denying certain parts of myself to. You know, accommodate other people and, and Hollywood, you know, I got very lucky early on that I got a lot of jobs and, and high profile jobs. Uh, especially like when I got Boy Meets World and I was, I really wanted to like please everybody at Disney and the producers and everything. And I, um, but it was weird because on the show I was this sort of, not a sex object, but she was very, The U undertones were sexual, I guess. Right. And she was always the one dancing around in lingerie.  

[00:03:08] Peter: And like you spoke about that, teasing the boys,you mentioned that in the, both the concept and your articles, the concept that, you know, Yeah. Here's Disney. Right. You know, pure, pure bread, Disney. Yeah. Um, the, the, the likes of which we all all know who comes from Disney. Everyone. Everyone. Wonderful and happy. And then, Yet they were putting you in situations that today, I think if we looked at them under the eye of 2022, right. We 

[00:03:24] Maitland: question. Oh, absolutely. Like, like I say in the book, how I had to go up to the producer's office to try on lingerie for my lingerie scenes. So, and like not just once. I mean, there was 20 people in there, whatever, a big group. Mostly men. Uh, pretty much all men except for maybe one or, um, and then I would have to try on all of it and like, and I thought that this was my job to do this, and I never, at the time, I didn't even 0cConceptualize that it was a weird thing or it was ski or it was anything wrong with it. But then today you look at that, if that happened today and it went on the internet or anything, people would be fired for it Yeah. 

[00:04:00] Peter: . Yeah. And I think that, you know, in a lot of ways, everyone, everyone complains about cancel culture and complains that, that were too high strung.
But a lot of things, positive changes have, have resulted from not only people like you speaking out, but you know, all the way back to the Weinstein and, and things like that. Yeah. But at, at the time that you were doing it again, you were under. Let's just be a good girl. Let's just do the nice thing. Yeah. I didn't wanna, like, was it, was there a fear there that if you, if you acted the way you wanted to or if you acted the way you were, the way you thought you were supposed to, you'd be gone? 

[00:04:29] Maitland: Yes, definitely. Oh yeah, always. I had very much anxiety about that kind of stuff, like very much anxiety that I wouldn't do the right thing, I wouldn't be the right way, or I wasn't good enough for the situation and I.  You know imposter syndrome. Yeah. May, Yeah, maybe. Yeah. . Yeah, I guess. But it was like, yeah, cuz I had to like kind of be this persona that I can't see all the time. I was not who I was like there, but in certain parts of myself, especially my sexuality and everything. And I had to hide like, Things that, you know, how I wanted to be exact cause I thought it was wrong or bad, or, you know, weird or, or they would judge me and come down on me.

[00:05:07] Peter: Fear is a great motivator. Not necessarily in a good way, but fear is a, you know, I don't wanna lose my job, I'm gonna conform despite what it's doing to your mental health. Yeah. Right, right. So as you moved on and as you had different roles and, and at, at some. Was there a, I guess was there a moment where you just said, F this? 

[00:05:28] Maitland: I mean, was it, was it, did it come all at once or how did it, And it's  interesting. Back at the time, I didn't think that it was having an effect on me in my mental health. Like I didn't conceptualize that. I thought it was just like there's something wrong with me that I. Wasn't doing things the right way, but, and looking back, writing the book, I really saw that in certain situations. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it was a long time, a long journey like finding myself, and it's interesting because of all, you know, pitfalls and disappointments that I had after I had a lot of success, like after white chicks and all that, when I was really typecast and things dried up and Hollywood would, they still wanted to keep me in the box that they had put me as a, like this good girl character, this, but they didn't wanna cast me cuz I was already a typecast character. Right. So, but they still wanted me there for like, whenever they needed a certain purpose for me, like a little episodic work or something like that. Um, so that became frustrating. So then I, I actually, that's when I moved to New York for a while. I got married and moved to New York. Okay. And it was kind of like a, it was a breath of fresh air to kind of get away from the Hollywood machine. I've heard that. Yeah. Because it was like, cuz when you're there you're just so caught up. Like, Oh, what, Who's going to this party? Right? What's this audition? Did you get that one? Like, did you book this one? And, uh, so, so getting away, I really like started to really discover myself and I started writing a lot and erotic writing. And I started really discovering my sexuality and stuff of, I guess not discovering it all the way Admitting it Okay. Is more of a thing because I think I knew all along that I, I, I just thought I was different and I thought I, like I say, I, I was a bad girl maybe inside , but, but I realized, you know, I'm not bad. It's kind of funny. My husband helped me realize that really. and he was very encouraging of me to explore this path that I really wanted to explore. 

[00:07:17] Peter: I imagine so. I mean, I remember, and I, I guess I can't really equate much to it, but I've always imagined the, the day that I told my parents, I, I, I had one job in my life. I worked for, for America Online back in the nineties when, when a was the internet, right? Yeah. And I came back to New York and realized, They let us work anyway we wanted, which is why I did so well. My ADHD flourished cuz I was able to do, Oh, you wanna work at two in the morning? Great. As long as you get it done.
Yeah. Yeah. Then I come back to New York and start working for a magazine and, and we have 8:00 AM meetings and 9:30 AM meetings and 10:00 AM editorial boards. And I'm like, What? This is Russia? And it, I, I quit within two. Yeah. And I remember telling my Dad, um, I'm gonna start my own PR firm and if it fails, and I actually said when it fails, when it fails, oh I'll get another. Cause I was so, who the hell am I to do anything, you know, entrepreneurial. And that was like 24 years ago. And I remember that was the scariest conversation I ever had have because I said, You know, I might need you to help pay my rent for a month or I might need what I didn't thank God, but you know, I got lucky and, and things were in. But tell us about the mindset when you decided you're gonna make this switch. You're gonna go from mainstream to adult, which to be, let's be fair, adult is kind of at this point, 2022, putting mainstream. Anyway,

[00:08:20] Maitland: that's why it's so weird to say both things and I know we have to differentiate kind of, but, But it is weird that we have to differentiate.
  

[00:08:25] Peter: Right? So tell me about, Because you, you wrote a really interesting piece that I really enjoyed about your interaction with Elizabeth Berkeley. Oh, yes, I was Right. So tell us about that.

[00:08:33] Maitland:  First, It was a very quick interaction. Yeah, but it was an interesting one. I, it was right after like the news broke that I was, Doing this big porn film and stuff. And I was in the industry and everything and I was, you know, walking out of the Whole Foods. And I saw her off to the side and she looks at me like, you know, our white eyes and they got wider. And I was like, and she had, I, I don't know, I think it was her husband at the time. I don't know if there's still, I don't know the situation.
It was a man with her. Right. Um, and she, she just looks at and she turns to him and like whispers something like this and he looks, and it was such a weird like, situation to have them be like, Look at me like some sort of a, you know, beast down in the wild.

[00:09:11] Peter: I'm sorry. And let's just, let's just be clear, this is Nomi Malone looking at you , right? This is the girl who, who went from Saved by the Bell, then Showgirls. So I'm, I'm not sure what she's actually looking at, where she comes off looking at you, everybody. So that really kinda pissed me off when I read that. The hell is she looking at you?

[00:09:25] Maitland:  But it's a weird thing because once you go- when it's deemed adult, Right. It's different, right? Like in Hollywood films like now on like streaming shows and stuff, they go so close to it, of course.  

[00:09:39] Peter: But, but they didn't go all the way. In 2003, um, I, I represented a company called New Frontier Media and, uh, New out of Denver, Ca, Boulder, Colorado, and New Frontier was the, this back in for porn was free, right?
Yeah. Right. And, and, and they were the largest distributor of adult paperview on cable. Mm-hmm. . And I would go, I had my, I worked for them for four years and I took their stock price from like 99 to $10 because I forced my way into the Wall Street Journal and Forbes and Fortune. Mm-hmm. explaining, you know, I have a company who I'm repping, who is kicking the ass, their biggest competitor with Playboy.
Yeah. By a factor of 10 x. Like, Oh, we great. They're adult. Oh, we can't touch that. I'm like, Why the hell not, not? It's so explaining when, and I got through and, and I remember getting New Frontier Media on the cover of Forbes was like, like the highlight. If that's my epi half right now. Yeah. The first porn company on Forbes. But, you know, but it was, it was the concept of, look, you, you, you're, it's one of those things that you're. Um, secretly. Yeah. Right. You're not gonna admit to it, but meanwhile, look at how much money is being driven. Yes. You know, let's, let's, let's look at something like Euphoria. Um, great show, but not really about the acting per se. Yeah. You know, there's, there's things we're looking at on that show that we know exactly what we're looking. Go onto Reddit. You're not gonna find, uh, uh, um, uh, reviews of the acting. You're gonna find one thing on your, you know, about your for. And so, so that being said though, it's a lot easier to say that then is to sort of tell us about, like, tell us about the day or whatever.

[00:10:56] Maitland: It was, the moment where, All right, I'm doing this and, and  here we go. You know what, it wasn't like one certain moment. I mean it uh, it was cuz I started like exploring stuff on my social media sexy pictures and stuff. And this was along the time, by the time Girl Meet's World has spin enough appointments coming around, right? So there was a lot of attention and social media was really starting to really boom, like Instagram, especially in like Snapchat. And uh, so I started getting followers for like doing my sexy cosplay that I loved doing and doing bikini shots and all that stuff. Uh, but then I'd eventually. They started like taking down photos.
Right. Actually, cuz a lot of people would complain for no reason to like these like fundamentalist types that watch, of course that are obsessed with like boy meets world being wholesome and wholesome and good and stuff. And uh, actually a lot of porn girls though suffer from people just,

[00:11:46] Peter: Oh, of course for that question.

[00:11:49] Maitland: Just taking their, I mean, look at the Visa MasterCard scenario. They had match  ridiculous. Um, so I kind of, my, my fans were like, Well, why don't you just sell content? And I didn't know what content was really at the time. I mean, I kind of heard of it, so I, but I said, Well, maybe, And I said, I'll start, I'll start a Patreon account, right? It's, you know, they patrons of your art. And I was gonna do like Playboy-esque type photos. I, I started the page and I, I didn't even like, Um, announced it. I just like did it one night and I said, ah, close it. Then the next morning there was like 20 people in there and then so I announced it and by the end of the week there was like 2,800 people. I was like, What? They're gonna buy my nudes, a create content. 

[00:12:23] Peter: Holy shit!

[00:12:24] Maitland: I know. And it was just like, then it kind of evolved from there. Cause I, I had been exploring like my sexuality and my writing and everything like that, so I was like, Oh, maybe I'll do. Girl, girl stuff then, and let's do this. And my fans responded and it was kinda like they were watch, they really were watching my journey along the way. Yeah. Like in real time. Um, and so then I, then I was like, What? You know, my husband and I had a big moment about when we said we're gonna have me do something with guys. So I, but I was so lucky. I found two guys in the porn industry who've been there so long, they were so professional. And they really like taught me along the way, like how would to do, this was a year and like almost a year and a half period before I got like a call from Vixon to do. Right. The black scene that went crazy viral. I might, might have been of, been , but it, but then I didn't even announce that to the press. It was all kind of just a internet moment. 

[00:13:21] Peter: Oh, well by that moment you'd built, you'd built the audience. 

[00:13:22] Maitland: Yes, but when I did. That's why everybody thinks I made this announcement. I just was saying I'm going to porn right now when I did the film drive for deeper.com. Mm-hmm. , which is Vic, one of Vic's brands. Um, but it was because I, the black team just blew up that, on that same day, Caden Cross, who, who is amazing performer and director in, in her own right, but she had started the brand deeper, right?
Not very long before she had just, they just acquired the brand like four months or launched four months before, but she was doing her first feature. For it and, um, she lost her co-star on. The day my black scene came out. Oh wow. So, but she thought she'd have to quit the movie cuz you know, there's not a lot of people who can handle a lot of dialogue fast. And so, um, she went to Vixen and said, I think we're done with, we're not able to do it this year. And then they said, talk to Maitland. She just blew up and she can act. And then, so that really was, we did that and I decided, you know what, I'm really proud of this. I'm proud of the trailer, I'm proud of the whole thing of the feature, cuz full length features complete, you know, dialogue story. It was, um, so I did announce it to the press. That's went insane. And that's when everybody thought, Oh, she just made the switch all of of a sudden. It's always a backstory. Yeah. It's kind of like when people say, Oh my God, like they have a starring rule in something suddenly and they're like, You just showed up my imdb, but it's 

[00:14:44] Peter: 30 years.

[00:14:45] Maitland: I know I've been here forever. 

[00:14:47] Peter: The everyone's like, You last company, you started this, sold it three years. It was 17 years of crap. 

[00:14:51] Maitland: Yeah, no, that's what I mean. 

[00:14:53] Peter: There's so much prep involved and so much time. Let me ask you this. One of the things that we touched on, and this is what I think my listeners can really relate to mm-hmm. um, being as out there as you. Right. Whether, whether it's it's on, uh, in Hollywood or, or in adult, there is a, how do you edit that out? How do you deal with the haters? How do you deal with the bad reviews? A lot of, when you're ADHD or ADHD or any sort of neurodiverse, yeah, be imposter syndrome is huge, but also, The premise that, I mean, I'll give a keynote to 10,000 people. Mm-hmm. , right? 9,999 of them will love it. There's one guy who didn't stand up for the standing ovation. That's all that I'm gonna think about for the next two weeks. 

[00:15:27] Maitland:  I know. You know, what do you do? I used to be a lot more like that. Um, like I would get very, like, especially when I started doing sexier photos, like on Instagram stuff, I'd get those, like fundamentalist haters and stuff. I got very perked by it. I guess , that's the word. Um, but now I kind of. I don't embrace it. There's always like one or two trolls that just wants to attack you. Right? But I was actually told something early on when I was on the soap opera that the fan mail that we get, and I remembered this, like I really came to play with the trolls. No matter if it's good or bad, you're making an impact. If they didn't care, they wouldn't even be there. So it's, if you're not getting any attention or any feedback from people, that's cuz think about to be a troll, you have to be pretty investing. 

[00:16:14] Peter: Exactly. 

[00:16:15] Maitland: You watch people getting fired up about something, you're, you're making this connection.

[00:16:18] Peter: Sounds like all the people who, who, when Nike came out to support Gay Rights, uh, everyone burned their Nike clothing. Okay. So yeah, just spend the a hundred bucks on sneakers and burn. Okay, cool. Cause you know, it's not like Maggie didn't make any money from that. That's true. That's true. But no, I, I, I've always said, if, if you don't have haters, you're not doing enough to change the status quo.

[00:16:33] Maitland: That's, that's exactly good. That's, that's a perfect statement really.

[00:16:37] Peter: So you just sort of put it outta your head. You're like, They're there, but 

[00:16:40] Maitland: I try to, it means that I'm doing something. I mean, you know what always is kind of like, of course sounds the back. It's, Yeah, I don't like it, but, you know, but I try to, Yeah. Put it out my. And I do have some wonderful fans who will attack them, like nice backers. I don't even do all the work. 

[00:16:52] Peter: There you go. Yeah. So 

[00:16:54] Maitland: what's. You know what? I don't know. And, you know, well I really would like to sell the book rights and stuff cuz I, I think there's really potential there and we're working on that. And it's funny because ever since I have been in the Adult industry, I've actually had more opportunities, like people in mainstream coming to me and stuff. Like I shot a sitcom pilot last year. I'm like, yeah. So, uh, 

[00:17:15] Peter: It's, it's, well, I think it's good timing for you also. I think that those barriers have definitely back from when I was repping in 2003, like it's definitely changed.

[00:17:21] Maitland:  It's so changed and I really think it's because people have grown up with it on the internet. Yeah. Not grown up, but you know, when they get in there maybe. 

[00:17:28] Peter: So, yeah, I remember. No, I, Believe me, I remember there was a bodega, um, on the corner where, where near, I grew up in the corner, I think it was 91st and Amsterdam with an owner who did not care what you bought or what you looked at, whether it was- that's funny- Beer or nudie mags. And I, you know, like the majority of kids in my, in my grade, like 86 to 90 in high school, 85 or whatever. I think we pretty much all found it through that mess, through that pod. 

[00:17:50] Maitland: That's true. Yes. I know. I think kids today, they go online.

[00:17:53] Peter: You don't have no idea how hard it was.

[00:17:55] Maitland:  They just go online and that's so funny. But seriously, people in their twenties and thirties now, they're like, They're so open to it. And especially women. I am so surprised by the women that come up to me and they're like, This is so cool. I'm so glad you're doing this and making this change. And I, I think they feel like they can talk to me cuz I'm, I'm in, I was in their living rooms. Yeah. And I feel a little like a bridge or something between like, they can ask me questions. And people can feel a little safer talking to me about things they're curious about in the adult industry and stuff. But they all, Everybody watches it ?  

[00:18:26] Peter: No. No question about it. But they, Yeah, I could tell you, I mean, I remember when I was wrapping the company had access to all their data and I could tell you what states and what cities and what towns in those states. Yeah. Um, spent the most money. Oh really? Uh, it was, yes. You know, little spoiler. It was always a red state. Yeah. Always. A And it was like the hardest portion of course. And then the hardest core stuff. Another the one- oh, this is terrible! Right. Then they go right home. They spend a hundred bucks. Exactly. Um, that's, So tell us what you do Last, last couple questions to keep this brief. Tell us what you do to get out of your head. So do you exercise? Do you, what is your thing when you, when you're like, Oh my God, I gotta, I'm, I'm, I'm gone. See an hour, see in two hours. See you here. What do you.. 

[00:19:03] Maitland: I actually trained to be a yoga teacher. Oh wow. I'd never taught, but I did it for myself. And that was actually after I came back from New York and I was really, that helped me discover a lot for myself too, to really like, get like out my head and really like, you know, meditate, I guess, and like do the practice. So I do do that. I really like to do that. I like to play with my dogs and stuff; most, the most innocent fun. I think that they just don't care. They just, they like, no matter what is going on in the world, they're just happy to be with you. And I think that's, Yeah. So I think I do, I like to do that, but um, and I like to, I like to read a lot and I like to, um, you know, I listen to music and watch them try to like, and not distract myself, but like, just to calm and relax. Yeah. Because yeah, sometimes I get stressed out with everything going on and stuff, so I really need to like, Just mellow down.

[00:19:53] Peter:  Do you have any rituals or, um, habits that absolutely must happen every single day? 

[00:19:59] Maitland: No, I don't think so. Not every single day. I mean, does coffee count ? 

[00:20:04] Peter: Yeah, coffee counts.  

[00:20:05] Maitland: Okay. Coffee's right up there with exercise. Sure. Why not? Yeah. And like exercise. Yes and no. I don't always get to do that, but I, but I do. But, um, yeah, I think coffee, coffee's my ritual. . 

[00:20:17] Peter: I think coffee is a perfect way to end anything. So, So definitely this interview, Maitland Ward. Thank you so much. Um, tell us how people can find you?

Web: https://onlyfans.com/maitlandward

Socials:  @MaitlandWard on Twitter  INSTA  FB  and @Maitlandtoks on TikTok

[00:20:23] Maitland:  Oh, on all of the social media is Maitland Ward, except I do have a TikTok now which I just started, 

[00:20:29] Peter: listen, it’s, I’m like the only person that, that Asia's not following their, you know, stealing their, oh my gosh, stealing their files.

[00:20:34] Maitland: I, I'm so good at it yet, but we're It's MaitlandTok, because somebody had my name, 

[00:20:40] Peter: Ah, someone took your name, you. You can probably fight and get that back if you want.

[00:20:41] Maitland:  Yeah, I actually am working on that, but Awesome. Um, but yeah, it's funny. So yeah. But everywhere else is my name. 

 

[00:20:52] Peter: Folks, the book is called. “Rated X: How Porn Liberated Me from Hollywood”. This is a wonderful, wonderful interview.
Thank you so much, Maitland Ward for taking the time!

Guys, as always, thanks for listening. We appreciate you being here. This one went a little longer. Normally we cap at 20 minutes because you know, #ADHD but we went a few minutes longer and I think that's awesome. And wanna give big shout out to Maitland Ward and to, Brian Scott Gross putting us together. Brian runs the amazing PR firm, uh, BSG Public Relations He's pretty awesome. He lives out in California. A really short guy though, but really nice guy, . And anyway, , thrilled that you took the time, and really, really grateful guys. We'll see you again next week. Thank you for listening. Talk to you soon.

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Katie's motto is "stop being a weenie", which speaks perfectly to her belief that anything can be accomplished with a little bravery. Katie had a lucrative - but unsatisfying career - in Sales and Marketing for years. Until one day she walked out to build the life and career she really wanted. She went on to get her training in Executive Coaching and Leadership Development at the Co-Active Training Institute in San Rafael, California. Now, she's a Certified Professional Co-Active Coach and an Associate Certified Coach with the International Coaching Federation. Katie built her successful business helping mission-driven entrepreneurs get out of overwhelm and into six-figure incomes - all while doing meaningful work that they love. Now Katie spends her time between Philadelphia and Cape Cod. She loves travel, her goofy dog Luna, and celebrating her clients' wins with good champagne. Katie shares her advice on how to find a good coach, tips and tricks she uses that you may never have heard about, and the importance of time management, among other goodness, enjoy!

In this episode Peter and Katie discuss:  

00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:22 - Intro and welcome Katie McManus

3:05 - You’ve been through it. What do you do for clients who come to you saying they are just a complete screw-up?

03:53 - Upon hearing a new client’s story…

04:48 - Treasuring the benefits

05:04 - the ADHD brain is always working

06:15 - On not using neurotypical advice

06:40 - We with ADHD do not have a built-in electric water heater; we have to pump-up the good hot water for ourselves. [Which explains getting up at 4AM today].

08:01: How listing every single activity can in itself bring a sense of accomplishment/a dopamine hit  Ref: Canva App 

08:40 - What are some of the other tips and tricks you’ve learned over the years?

08:43 - How to do time management when you’ve got something at 2pm and it’s already noon

10:24 - What about scheduling weekend blocks of time?

11:33 - Neon colored index cards and an elliptical machine anyone?

12:15 - What would you say to someone who wants to work with a coach, but doesn't necessarily know that it's it's right for them?

13:44 - How can people find more about you? Web:  https://www.katiemcmanus.com/ 

Socials: @katie.the.coach on INSTA @katie.mcmanus.leadership on Facebook and @katiemcmanusleadership on LinkedIN 

14:00 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

14:37 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits 

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

[00:00:37] Peter: Yo yo everybody what's going on. My name is Peter Shankman. This is Faster Than Normal. I'm gonna save you guys. I’m going to save you the usual spiel I give every day because today or every episode because today, my daughter went back to school and, and my daughter who sleeps in till noon, if I let her every day was up at 4:15 in the morning. Oh. Which is even before I get up this morning. And so I had my entire bike ride and everything else about an hour earlier than normal while talking to her and explaining to her that it doesn't matter that she doesn't know who's gonna be in her class because I'm sure she'll make tons of friends. And I was rewarded by bringing her to school and saying, so are you all set and realizing that she had already left to join her a bunch of friends. So feeling really loved this morning. It's. Good. Good place to be. So with that being said, meet Katie McManus. She's going to provide me the love that my daughter didn't give me. Um, Katie is a business strategist and coach, um, with a great motto or motto is stop being a weenie, which I love that. I, I say it, uh, I say it stop being a dumb ass, but it's sort of the same premise. It's like stop, stop worrying so much. Show a little bravery and get the hell out there. Jump out the plane already. She used to work in sales and marketing. Hated it. And she went on to get her training, executive coaching and leadership development and coactive training Institute in San California. She's a professional, proactive coach and associate certified coach, the international coaching Federation, all these things I didn't notice. OK. She built her successful business, helping mission driven entrepreneurs, get outta overwhelm and into six figure incomes while doing meaningful work that they love, she spends her time between Philadelphia and Cape Cod, which is just weird. Uh, she loves travel, which is cool. She has a goofy dog named Luna, which is cool, and she likes celebrating client wins with good champagne. So I'll take those and that's, that's a good enough reason to have you on Katie. Welcome. 

[00:02:18] Katie: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Although the bar to be here to show you enough, love to make up for your daughter. That's pretty high. 

[00:02:26] Peter: I was gonna say you got your work cut out for you. So let's get started. um, I fully expect to be loved the next, next, uh, next few months. So next few minutes. So, I mean, I, I, you know, this is a podcast for people with ADHD and then, and sort of sort of neurodiversity and things like. And so they've spent the majority of their lives. Most of our listeners spent the majority of our lives at least I have, um, you know, hearing that we're broken. Right. And hearing that, that, that it doesn't matter what we're gonna do, cause chances are gonna screw it up. Cause that's just what we are. And so, you know, you, you, you come from, you have that background, you understand sort of where that comes from. Um, you know, what do you, what are you doing? What, how are you working with clients who come to you and say, yeah, I'm just complete screw-up? 

[00:03:05] Katie: Yeah. Um, well, it's interesting cuz I think there's a difference of when you are you're diagnosed. Cuz I was diagnosed when I was a kid. Right. And I lived in California and um, my parents actually sent me to a, a special school. They sent me to a Waldorf, um, which I don't know if you're familiar with Waldorf. It's kinda like summer camp all year long. Um, and they like neglect to teach you things like math. Uh, so I didn't learn like math until I was about six years old, but I don't know. I, I was able to integrate it into my workflow from a really early stage. Um, I actually didn't realize that. If, when you get diagnosed later, you have this stigma attached to you because you've spent so much of your life feeling like a fuck up and not knowing why. And I'm sorry. I, I hope we're allowed to swear here, 

[00:03:52] Peter: here. Go for it by all means. 

[00:03:53] Katie: Okay, great. So, um, when I'm working with my clients, it's, it's really interesting. Um, You know, they are coming to me freaking out about, oh, I fucked this up again. I screwed this up again. I'm getting this done late again. And on one side, it's like, okay, well, let's kind of deconstruct that story that you have, that you're screwing everything up all the time and that things are supposed to be done by a certain point. right. And then on the other side, like, you know, , you know, why not just make that part of your process? Why not just design that with your clients from the get, go that, Hey, I have ADHD and sometimes, uh, I'll send you emails the last minute. And if you need something from me before then just ping me for it.

[00:04:38] Peter: And I think that, that framing the disabilities as a benefit. Yeah. Right. Is something that, that not enough people do. And again, not enough people do it because they've been told all their lives. It's not a benefit. It's a curse. Right. You know, you are broken. And so I think that that's a, it's a good answer. I think though it takes, it takes a lot of work to get there. Um, it's, it's hard to believe. that you have something good. Um, when, when you come from this world where it's not, yeah. 

[00:05:03] Katie: You know, I have, I have this one lawyer, um, client and he's brilliant, absolutely brilliant. He has ADHD. And I can't tell you how many times he tells me that he came up with this incredible idea to win a case in the final hour because he procrastinated. 

[00:05:20] Peter: You know, like no, a lot of us do that

[00:05:21] Katie: . Right. But procrastination, when we think of procrastination, like, yes, we're not writing the paper. Yes. We're not doing the project. Yes. We're not doing the thing. It doesn't mean we're not working on it though. I don't know about how your process is, but I know when I'm procrastinating, I'm cleaning my house. I'm sewing a costume for Halloween in three months, I'm taking my dog for a walk. My brain is churning on that project. Right? It's it's trying things out. It's creating arguments for this. It's getting organized. I I'm not physically actually working on it. You wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to hand you anything that I've done on it, but I've already done the work in my head by the time I go and put pen to paper, if I'm writing.

[00:06:03] Peter: Right. I mean, I think a lot of that also is the fact that, you know, because we work differently, right. We do that in such a way where, you know, it might look like we're doing absolutely nothing. We're surfing the web, we're doing whatever, but there's, there's a, a candle that's lit back there and it is burning.

[00:06:15] Katie: Right. Right. I think also we, we make the mistake of trying to take neurotypical advice on productivity and that's something that actually hurts us more than it helps us. You know, I don't know if you're familiar with that saying like eat the frog first thing in the morning. No, of course. Yeah. I'm sorry. I don't have enough dopamine, first thing in the morning to get self water. Right. I have to. Well, and that's right. 

[00:06:37] Peter: Yeah. It's funny. It's funny because that, the whole premise behind that, you know, when people think of praise being up as early as I do, uh, to exercise it's because of exactly that, that is my version of. Yep. Right. I'm getting, I don't, I, you know, everyone, like, you know, do you think I really wanna get on the goddamn bike at four 30 in the morning and ride for an hour? No, wanna sleep. How's wrong with you. Yeah. Right. But you don't, you don't do that. Yeah. Because you know, what has to happen, 

[00:06:59] Katie: right. Right. It's like, it's kind of funny, you know, we think of neurotypical people, it's almost like they have an electric water heater right next to their shower, you know? And when, when someone with ADHD or who is neurodiverse, it's like the water heaters down in the basement, were on the third floor. Right. Like we just gonna have to prime the pump. We have to like get all the cold water out before we can really tackle that big thing. 

[00:07:20] Peter: Wow. That's a great way of looking at it. Right. That's I love that. I'm I'm blatantly gonna steal that. That's a great way of looking at that. No, it's, it's really true. That, that concept of priming the pump- you. Uh, people wake up, you know, I remember that I always thought for years that I was in high school, that I was awesome. Um, at first period, no matter what first period was, and it turns out first period was always English. Yeah. Or social studies, the two things I always loved. Yeah. Right. The senior year it was math. Well, I'm screwed. you know, all of a sudden my, my first period class, not a good thing. Mm-hmm right. So it's that it's that, you know, that premise of it? No, it comes down to the fact that, that I was getting my dopamine for the rest of the day from the first grade class that I enjoyed, right? 

[00:08:00] Katie: No, a hundred percent for, for me. I actually went into Canva and I created a list of all the things I usually like to get done in the morning from drinking my coffee, to take my dog for a walk, to exercising, to meditating, to showering, to brushing my teeth. And I find the days where I actually cross those things off as I do them, not in any particular order, um, are days that I am far more productive later. Because I've given myself credit for all the little things that I've done and I'm able to feel a little more productive and it really does get that, that dopamine dripping, which helps me get more stuff done.

[00:08:36] Peter: Yeah, no question about it. So tell me some of, some, some of the other secrets and tricks that you've learned over the years.

[00:08:41] Katie: Oh, man. Um, I mean, time management is a big thing for me. Um, I had a really hard time with a coach I had a while ago who I, I stopped working with pretty quickly, um, The neurotypical way of organizing a day is like do 30 minutes of this and then do 30 minutes of that. I'm sorry, that just doesn't work for me. Um, if I'm going to start working on something, I know I'm gonna get into hyperfocus and I need like a good chunk of time to be in hyperfocus because there have been too many instances where I've gotten really sucked in on a project I'm really into it. And then I missed three appointments. Right. Right. So I get this time anxiety. I can't even get into hyperfocus these days if I have something two hours from now. Right. Because I know like I'm just gonna constantly check the clock and like, I'm worried about the interruption. 

[00:09:33] Peter: So, what do you, so, so, so, 

[00:09:35] Katie: so what I do is I honestly, like, I, I tell my, my business manager and my, my assistant, like, you're not allowed to, like, these are my blocks for creative time and they're five hour blocks. And the amount of work that I can get done in a good five hour block is unheard of . Yeah. But I wouldn't be able to do that if I were just plugging in an hour a day, right. The same amount of time, but the way it's organized, just my brain just can't get into it in just an hour. 

[00:10:01] Peter: Oh, because the end of the day, you need to give yourself, you know, cause if you're okay, I have a meeting at two. Well now it's 11. All I gotta remember. And 12 o'clock and start thinking of one. O'clock exactly. And so, so you're not giving it the full capacity? No, I, I do the same thing. I block off, I block off creative days, right? Uh, no, one's allowed to schedule stuff with me on certain days of the week and that's just, that's just me to have, have a good time and create my, whatever I'm creating.

[00:10:17] Katie: Yeah, totally. Um, I also , I don't know, like weekends are really hard for. Weekends. I, I don't know. I have this expectation that I'm productive all week and on the weekends, I have to be productive in my personal life. Like I have to clean and I have to do all these things. Um, for the longest time I would just sit in terror of like, I'm a failure, I'm screwing this up. Like I'm not getting everything done for hours on Saturday morning until I actually started prescribing a Disney movie to myself every, every weekend morning mm-hmm . And it's like, there's a point at which. I don't know, there's this, this active resting thing that happens when you're, when you're watching something, that's not a lot of work to watch. Right. Where you get kinda not bored, but you're like, I'm done with this now. I've had my rest. Now I get to go do something. Right. But for, for me, like I have to be for me to turn my brain off it. There has to be a story going on. 

[00:11:13] Peter: Right. No makes perfect sense. And I think that's really interesting cause you know, a lot of growing up for me, at least it was, um, my I'd always wanted, I always wanted to be listening to music when I was studying. My parents would always say, no, it can't do that. Can't do that. Can't focus when you're doin gthat. Well, it turns out obviously, you know, now that, that would've actually been perfect. Right. That would've incredibly, incredibly beneficial. 

[00:11:32] Katie: Yeah. Did you ever use like neon colored, uh, index cards for studying? Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh. Any trip, love that stuff. I actually got like a little mini elliptical and I'd be with, up with my geography book in front of me. I'd have a map, I'd have my index cards and I'd just be like pumping away on this little mini elliptical. 

[00:11:52] Peter: That's funny. That's funny, but no, it is, you know, again, it's what works and we didn't know .God, when I was a kid, I probably would've, I would've benefited so much from having like a, you know, a treadmill desk or anything, any of those things, they just didn't, they just weren't there. Right. I have no question about it. 

[00:12:04] Katie: Or like talk to text, you know, you walk and talk and you're just like figuring out your paper. And even if it's messy, you get to go back and edit it later, but you get all the thoughts out. 

[00:12:13] Peter: Yep. What would you say? Um, at the end of the day to someone who's who's, you know, wants to work with a coach, but doesn't necessarily know that it's it's right for them or, you know, they, they feel things like that.

[00:12:24] Katie: I mean, honestly, there are so many coaches out there that aren't gonna be a good fit for you. I would say, just go and contact a bunch of them and have, have a discovery call. Just see if they're, if you even like the person, right. Because that's half the battle, cuz you're gonna be spending a lot of time with this person. You have to trust them. You have to know that they're on your side. Um, Like the only way to figure, figure out if you wanna do something or not is to explore it and get the information that you need. Um, and that's what I, I always invite people. Like, if you're curious about working with me, just book up call, I'm not a high pressure sales person at all. I come from sales. It doesn't mean that I utilize all the gross tricks that they teach there. Um, but it's really ..Know what it is that you wanna accomplish through coaching. Really really important, cuz otherwise it's, it's really hard for a coach to support you when you're not even sure what you wanna get out of it.

[00:13:17] Peter: Um, no, I understand.

[00:13:18] Katie: And, and yeah, like find someone who, you know, you're gonna be able to be honest with, so not someone that you're trying to impress all the time, because you think they're cool. Um, and someone who you, you enjoy actually talking things through with. 

[00:13:37] Peter: That makes perfect sense. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Very cool. Well, I appreciate you guys taking the time. This was, this was a lot of fun. Katie McManus business transcripts. How can people find you? 

[00:13:46] Katie: Uh, they can find me at my website at www dot Katie. K a T I E. McManis cm, a ns.com. Um, and on Instagram at Katie dot the dot coach. 

[00:14:00] Peter: Very cool. I will have people reach out. We'll put in in with the show notes. Thank you so much for taking the time. We appreciate it. 

[00:14:05] Katie: Thank you so much for having me. This is so much fun and I, I hope you feel so much love. I'm sending it to you right now. You're channeling it through your daughter and all that. 

[00:14:14] Peter: That was great. I'm trying my best. Gonna go pick her up, you know, hopefully she's a good first day and, and things go well. So all good.
Guys. Thanks for listening to Faster Than Normal. We'll be here again next week with another episode, if you liked, you heard leave us a review uh, stick around fun stuff coming every single week this entire year. It's a new year. It's a new Dawn. It's a new day. The summer's over. Welcome back. We'll see you guys soon. 

 

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

A few fun facts about our guest today, Shawn Malloy:

48yr old Father of 2, a little trouble being ‘present’ sometimes.Married 17yrs to a very tolerant and patient wife Meghan.Undergraduate degree in Biochemistry (after starting as a music major) from California State University, Long Beach (study abroad semester in Nottingham, England). 21 years at current employer, Biogen, 12 roles in 8 groups over 21 years. Hobbies: parkour (6 stitches), rock climbing (sprained knee), mountain biking (sprained ankle, lots of scars), and trail running, Yoga, meditation, swimming, racing midlife crisis Camaro, guitar building from scratch. “Poor student” all the way from kindergarten through high school – a few flashes of brilliance caught by the odd teacher throughout. Dangerous teenager and mid-20s kid. 25 jobs by the age of 27 and only fired once. Still struggles with honing in on 1 passion. In his own words:  “I’ve always preferred breadth to depth but I know that if I gave my full attention to one of my passions, I’d conquer the world. As with most ADD folks, I tend to be my own worst enemy in that regard. But anytime I’ve given something full attention I’ve had wild success – the guitar is one of my favorite examples. I had a desire to build a guitar for a while, a passion for artistic endeavors, creating things, and woodworking, and a goal of finishing it before Christmas as a gift for my dad. The end result was a beautiful piece of functional art, and it was the first time I ever saw my father cry”. Today we’re talking mostly about Neurodiversity in the workplace. 

—— 

In this episode Peter and Shawn discuss:  

00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:01 - Intro and welcome Shawn Malloy

03:36 - You had 25 jobs by the age of 27. Let’s talk about how you’re not bored now, finally.

04:25 - "An ADD brain is like having a Ferrari engine with bicycle brakes"

04:55 - ADD can really be a blessing if you're in the right environment or you've put yourself in the right environment

05:55 - Growing at work under good, or ideal managing

06:55 - What happens when you get a dud for a manager at work?

08:05 - About Human Resources

09:40 - About recognizing talent and knowing how to utilize it in it’s best possible ways

10:22 - Trust = Commitment

10:54 - On Managers and management

13:19 - On how purposeful planning is so important

15:00 - What do you tell the up and coming manager about how to manage folks with neurodiverse brains?

15:47 - “You don’t manage to the role. You manage to the person”.

17:47 - On the power of diversity

18:42 - What is the one thing you’ve learned about your brain, that you wish you would’ve learned earlier in life?

19:12 - This bit right HERE on Imposter Syndrome and permitting your neurodiversity to work

20:00 - How can people find more about you? LinkedIN profile page is here: linkedin.com/in/shawn-malloy-3636696

20:22 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits 

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

[00:00:37] Peter: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal my name is Peter Shankman. I am thrilled to have you here today. It’s great to be here. Its a gorgeous day outside its approaching the end of August as we're recording this. Couple more weeks to labor day, I am about to get outta here and take my daughter out for a week to Tenerife. If you don't know where that is, all need to know it's off the coast of Spain and it is the largest has the largest water park in the world. So you could make the argument I'm going to the largest water park in the world and taking my daughter with me. So it doesn't seem weird. Anyway, thrilled to have you for another episode!

 

We have a guy named Shawn Malloy on the podcast. Shawn is different than some of our guests, but also very much the same as all of our guests. 48 year old father to 12 year old boy Killion, 10 year old girl, Anna. He loves his kids to death has trouble being present sometimes .Sounds familiar, born and raised settled north of Boston, Massachusetts married 17 years to a lovely tolerant and patient wife named Megan. Here's the cool part undergraduate degree biochem okay, so abroad in England, 21 years, the past 21 years, he has worked at a company called Biogen, which is how I met him when I gave a keynote to Biogen about a month or so ago, 12 roles in eight groups over 21 years, loves adrenaline sports .Sounds, familiar, parkour, rock climbing, mountain biking. I love that he puts all this stuff in his bio and includes the number of stitches and injuries he got with each one, which I think is just so ADHD for all of us. He races a car. He has a midlife crisis Camaro on track. He built a guitar from scratch. Don't we all with that? Anyway, his story is like all of ours. He was a poor student. He was a dangerous teen, he, hit his stride stride in college. Let's talk to Shawn and figure out what turned him into what he's doing today. Shawn, welcome to Faster Than Normal man. 

[00:02:37] Shawn: Thank you very much, Peter. Um, your talk at Biogen was definitely it hit home. Um, I was an adult diagnosed #ADHD or #ADD um, survivor, I guess you could say. Uh, and my teen years is definitely a survival story to some extent, um, But, yeah. Thanks for, thanks for having me on this is, uh, I'm looking forward to a fun conversation.

[00:03:00] Peter: At the end of the day, we make it through, we survive it. Somehow we move on, you know, we become adults. I joke that, um, you know, I turned 50 a couple of weeks ago, but didn't really hit me until yesterday. When I had a wall unit delivered. I now own a wall unit in my living room, which is. What kind of bullshit is that right? That's how, you know, you're getting all that, a goddamn wall unit. You know, I used to just hang my TV on the wall, right? No, not I have a wall unit cause you know, I need storage. What is that? Right. Welcome to middle age. 

[00:03:30] Shawn: Adulting. Um, it's horrible.

[00:03:32] Peter: Yeah. So let's talk about ADHD. You had 25 jobs by the age of 27. You were only fired once you got bored, super fast, right? Biogen, you found a place that never let you get bored. Yes. Um, okay, so let's talk about that. Cause not everyone has the fortune to not always, you know, not everyone has a job where they don't always get bored.

[00:03:56] Shawn: It it's been, honestly, it's been pretty amazing. Um, I think Biogen's been a place that. If you're performing reasonably well, you don't even have to be a top performer, but you're performing reasonably well. They'll let you try different stuff out. And I've moved from jobs that were somewhat adjacencies to jobs where I, I didn't know what I was doing. Um, And much to my surprise, each time I would be at 80% of my peers within a couple of months. And I attribute that to that ADD brain. Right. You've got this #Ferrari engine with bicycle brakes. Um, I. I was always able to assimilate information really quickly, put the pieces together, learn really fast, and it started to be intrinsically rewarded, rewarding. You talk about that dopamine hit, but the success profile that Biogen let me build over the years, just continued to add confidence to me as a person. Um, but also to the power of ADD. Like once I found out that I had ADD it started to click that this really can be a blessing if you're in the right environment or you've put yourself in the right environment.

[00:05:02] Peter: Well, and that's sort of one of the, sort of the unexpected gifts of, or ADHD that we, we figure out, right? No one can tell you that, right? No one can say, oh, trust me. It's gonna be, you know, you don't believe it. It has to happen. And it has to show up naturally, but once it does. It's sort of that way of call, like, wow, I'm in a position. I, I, I have this job where I have ability to not only do my job great, but then I can create things within my job that give me that dopamine hit that, let me work harder and let work more and let do better. So it's almost like selfing, prophecy. 

[00:05:33] Shawn: Yeah. Yeah. And in my time here, right, I've had 21 years. You can imagine I've had a lot of managers in that time. I've really only had two duds. And those were the times where there was such rigidity placed on me. And what I was allowed to do that I really did actually flounder. I, I was not good at the job, or I just couldn't get engaged with the job. And those were really hard and it got me to a point. You know, rather than looking for the ideal job, I look for the ideal manager and just make sure that the work's gonna be interesting.

[00:06:04] Peter: That's an interesting point. Instead of finding the, the, looking for the ideal job, you look for the ideal manager. And I think a lot of that actually resonates because I remember, you know, the few jobs I've had, right? I, I, I, I worked for America online, back in the nineties. That was the last job I ever had. The only job I ever had. And I had a great manager who let me, who understood, like do your job, you know, do it whichever way works for you, but get it done. And, and that. I think for me, you know, for my first job, having that as a first job was a bit of a, a problem because, uh, I just assumed every job was like that right. I went to my second job and, and, and it totally was not. And, you know, there were 8:00 AM meetings. There were check-ins and like, you know, I quit in two weeks. So having that ability to find that, or to have a boss or to have a, a manager. Who understands how you work and let you, lets you go the way you want I think it's key. You sort of honed in on that and you said it, you only had two sort of duds. What happens when you get a dud though? How do you, how do you sort of handle yourself? Because it's not, you know, if you can't be yourself, if you're not allowed to do the things you want, be the way you want. It's difficult.

[00:07:06] Shawn: It's very difficult and it, the problem that was just, it continued to get worse is I didn't stop being myself. I don't think that that's in the, a add profile is the ability to not be impulsive and not be yourself. Right. Um, that's so one of the things that defines us, so the relationship just deteriorated from not good to really bad. But what I did have was this long history of performance with a lot of people, I had a big network, so I was able to work through my network to find the next opportunity. Um, and really that was the only way out. I was not working my way out of this, this problem with the manager that was the dud or the managers that were duds, it just wasn't gonna work. Uh, one of the managers was removed, so they were a dud for everybody, not just me. The other one was the manager who was highly regarded and really was a brilliant man, but it was not a good personality match between how I needed to be functioning and how he wanted me to be functioning. And that one, the one where I network. 

[00:08:04] Peter: That's interesting point. That's interesting point because you know, it's not all the time that, you know, remember there are a lot of times where you you're sitting there and you're going okay. It's not that the, the boss, isn't a good boss. He's not a good boss for me. Yes. Right. And how do you, how do you sort of explain that, you know, to, to the powers that be when they don't understand what he, not a good boss for you, he's a boss, you know, you deal with it. Well, it doesn't work that way all the time.

[00:08:31] Shawn: No, it really doesn't. And you're very right. HR is almost always gonna side with the boss and they did, um, they didn't fully get it, but I wasn't in a unique position. This was, you know, maybe 15 years deep into my career here. I had built this legacy of everywhere I went, I did excellent. So it wasn't like, they just thought all of a sudden I'm not doing my job, but it was not a pleasant experience trying to, to escape if you will. I, there were a lot of things up against me, but I don't, I think there are gonna be a lot of people that don't have that benefit. 

[00:09:00] Peter: Well, that's the thing that brings up a really interesting point is that, is that every, you know, for as long as you're in a job, whether it's 15 years or 15 days, you know, your goal is to create a, a sort of, uh, security blanket around yourself where people look at you and go, yeah, he's a really good worker, or he's a really, you know, smart employee or whatever and so if something's not working. Right. Let's not be that quick to blame him. Let's see what the issue and, and that doesn't necessarily happen all the time because companies aren't trained to think that way. 

[00:09:35] Shawn: Not very often. No, I've what I got to know when I became a supervisor, is that there are very few people who don't want to do a good job. I would say it's bordering on none. Nobody wants to come in and be known as the crappy employee. Um, there's usually a barrier in their way, and it's whether it's a barrier in how the job is functioning or the training, or in my case, if you having a person with a ADD or some other, um, I don't wanna call it a disability, a different ability, a different brain, right. Um, you've gotta find ways to get them to be their best, cuz if you can find that for them; man, will they run through brick walls? Like if you're the person who discovers what that person's talent is after they've been, um, pushed down their whole life, what a connection seriously. Um, and had many of those over my career.

[00:10:22] Peter: That's really a key point also, because if you are a manager and you're able to bring that out, Your in your employee. Right. And, and, you know, not only bring that out, but, but appreciate it as opposed to try and push it back down, you know, these employees will go to the end of the Earth for you. And I don't think enough managers- don'ts that, that. They don't realize the level of commitment that someone with a different brain will give you. If you give them that level of trust. 

[00:10:54] Shawn: Oh, you I've seen it too many times to not believe it's true. Peter. You're, you're dead right. And. The not only that, right? The work side of things, but that personal connection that you get that personal, just watching somebody light up because they've been discovered for what they bring to the table. The, the trouble with managers is very few of them receive good formal training. It's kinda like when you're parenting, right. You become a parent. And then all of a sudden you've gotta figure out how to raise a human being. Um, when you're a manager, most of them are thrown to the, the, the job because they were good at a job, but not necessarily good at managing right. The good ones over time, come to realize that you manage the individual, you don't manage to manage your role. You manage to the people that you have in front of you. And, and that does get to you're managing to every individual difference. You're bringing out the bright spots and trying to minimize the deficits and it's not easy. It really isn't. So I don't, I don't fault always the managers who aren't good at it because it, it does take a, a really dedicated person to be able to do that. And you also have to have the bandwidth to do it. A lot of managers are given a day job as well as a manager role. So there's gotta be some patience for the manager as well. 

[00:12:04] Peter: Isn't that, um, what you said earlier that, that, you know, most managers aren't born into, into the concept of managing they're they're they're become, they become managers cause they were given a job which isn't necessarily a manager job. Isn't that the Peter principle, the Peter principle is, is the object that basically states that every worker will rise to his or her highest level of incompetence. Yes right in that, in that you, you, you, you hire someone and they're good at their job, so you promote them and they're good at the next job, so you promote them again and they're good at the following job. So you promote them again. Then they're not good. If finally reach a point where they're not good. Well, you don't demote. But you don't promote them again. Right. So they sit there. Right. And they, it that's how bureaucracy happens. 

[00:12:43] Shawn: yes. Yeah. It, it plays itself out over and over again in corporate America. For sure. I, I don't really have a good solution for it. Right. But I, I think, I don't know if there is one there really, 

[00:12:55] Peter: I think we can make a lot, you and I can make a lot of money, but you figure one out. 

[00:12:58] Shawn: No question. Yeah. I would agree. Um, I took a few notes as I was thinking about this podcast and, and the things I wanted to be able to convey. And we've talked about a, a great one, right? I think understanding how to navigate your career with ADD is important. But one of the things that I've I've learned throughout the years is, um, purposeful planning. As a person with ADD and activation energy. And I think they do relate to how I've navigated my career over time at Biogen. It wasn't just that I bounced around from job to job because I'm a ADD; I did all along have plans. Um, and for me, it's similar to the guitar that I built. Right. I had a, I finally had something that I could leverage my artistic capability, my engineering capability. I had a goal around it. Timing. And step by step of how to approach it. And I've, I've approached my career much the same way. And when I first started supervising people, I was in the manufacturing element of Biogen, very small little world. Okay. Very small little world. Right. But you feel like it's all there is because you're in the science, you're actually making the drug. But as I was developing people, all, I really knew how to develop them for were manufacturing roles. So I wanted to get out and see the broader thing that is biotech. I wanted to hop into some individual contributor roles, learn what different roles did so that as I came back to a management role, I'd understand how to develop people. Like when I saw somebody's passion to speak to what we were getting to before, when I noticed somebody's niche, I didn't necessarily know what to do with it other than maybe a small part in manufacturing, but now that I've come full circle with all this knowledge of all these roles, when I see somebody who's got a particular passion, I know where that fits in the organization. I know how to put them in a role that's gonna get them into that flow state. And that's good for people with a ADD that's good for people in life in general, but it all came because I had a plan that as a manager, I wanted to be able to develop people better, to be able to do that. I had to understand 

[00:14:53] Peter: that brings up a great point. What do you tell, you know, if you had to. Sort of hammer that down in 10 words. What do you tell the up and coming manager about, I mean, managing in general, but obviously managing people with neuro diverse brains, right. Because you know, , you certainly do not learn this in school. 

[00:15:11] Shawn: No, I think it's the first question I ask my people, um, when I meet them is- what is your passion? Where does time disappear for you? And then I'm gonna do my best to find the aspects of the current role that you're in and whatever future roles you wanna point yourself towards where that passion can come to bear as often as possible. Every job is gonna have crap you don't wanna do, sorry. It's work. Yeah. But the more that you can leverage those points of passion. The more you're gonna enjoy your work. The more you're gonna succeed. And the more you're just gonna really shine. And that's, that's what I would tell managers is you don't manage to the role you manage to the person.

[00:15:51] Peter: Ooh, I like that. 

[00:15:52] Shawn: If you wanna get the most out of the people that are around you, find out what drives them. Where does time disappear for them? You'll be surprised, right? You may hate analytics. You may hate looking at data, but I've had people under me who that is their passion. Mm-hmm they love working in a spreadsheet. They love seeing the story that comes out. When you start looking at the data and the numbers. If you have somebody who hates that, don't put them in a role that that's their main function. Find the person that that is their passion and oh, you're. Get such better work outta them, and you're gonna get better dedication, better loyalty. And you'll have people coming to you for jobs because they wanna work for you because you get it. You get how to place them in success.

[00:16:35] Peter: You bring an interesting point because I think a lot of people, whether you're manager or not, you know, we tend to gravitate towards the stuff that we're good at the stuff we like. Right. I mean, you know, let's. As we're as we're growing up and we're in school when we're undiagnosed with a neurodiverse brain, um, it's no surprise that we gravitate towards the stuff we're really good at, right. For me it was, it was English or it was, you know, it was social studies or whatever it wasn't math. Right. And so math would be horrible. So I would avoid math as much as possible. I think as adults, when we're in job roles, we sort of keep that uh, in the back of our heads and we don't really let that go away. So that, so that, that, you know, we tend to gravitate sorts of stuff we like to do and try to avoid the stuff we don't. And so, because of that, I think, you know, we look at our, our, our sort of employees when we're in a managerial role and we put them in the same boat, but what we have to sort of understand is that, that we might have employees who love the very stuff that we hate, like love. Yes. The very stuff that we hate. And we have to sort of, I guess, embrace that. For them. Right. And let them under, you know, Hey, you, you have that math kick. Great. Go do math. you know, I, I, I look at along lines of, I, my assistant is awesome at the stuff I'm terrible at. She doesn't let me schedule stuff in my calendar because I screw it up, but she's great at it. She loves that stuff. And so it's that, it's that giving over that ability for her to do that.

[00:18:08] Shawn: It's the power of diversity, right? We're talking about neurodiverse brain, but the power of diversity is everywhere in life. It's everywhere in work. And if you can work with people who are different than you, you're gonna be so much better off because everybody can bring a different strength to bear. Yeah. The hard part is a hundred percent. Different personalities that are there. Cause that can be a little weird. We are humans at the end of the day and sometimes we get a little quirky on the personality side. 

[00:18:32] Peter: I think. We could do nine and a half hours on managing personalities. So I'm not even gonna start with that. but I will, I will end it with this. I'll ask you this. What is the one thing you've learned about your brain, whether it's, you know, in a professional setting or personal setting with your wife or your kids that you wish learned earlier? 

[00:18:54] Shawn: That is a great question. I think you had mentioned it it's that the imposter syndrome, um, that it's very real, that it exists, but it really isn't true 90% of the time. The ADD brain, you are so good at so many things, and you can see the big picture better than so many other people. You're gonna be your own harshest critic. Yeah, that does not mean that you are not still better than 80 or 90% of the people who are doing the same thing. It means you're not 80 to 90% as good as you wanna be, or, you know, you could be, but stretching that extra mile may not be worth the effort. Your, your good enough is gonna be better than most people's best. So don't let imposter syndrome beat you down. 

[00:19:46] Peter: I love that.

[00:19:46] Shawn: Don't fall prey to it. Have faith that what you're doing is probably better than the majority of the people around you.

[00:19:53] Peter: That's that's a phenomenal, uh, a phenomenal line. That's that's awesome. I love that. I love that. Awesome. Well, listen, I cannot thank you enough for taking the time, Shawn really appreciate it. I'm so glad we connected, uh, at the Biogen talk.

Guys, Shawn Malloy , uh, how can people find you? How can they, how can they, uh, learn more about you?  LinkedIN profile page is here: linkedin.com/in/shawn-malloy-3636696

[00:20:11] Shawn: Uh, LinkedIN I am on LinkedIn. It's Shawn S H a w N M a L L O Y. Uh, and you'll find me as employed by Biogen. That's probably the cleanest and simplest way to find me. 

[00:20:22] Peter: Awesome guys. We’ve been visiting with Shawn Malloy and you've been listening to Faster Than Normal. My name is Peter Shankman as always. We love that you're here. And if you had a second right now, go and leave us a review. I cannot tell you how those reviews help our uh, podcast growth, the more reviews the more it helps the website and the podcast is seen. It is really incredible, and we're able to help more and more people understand that ADHD is a gift, ADD is a gift, Any form of neurodiversity is a gift, not a curse! We will see you again next week with a brand new interview and a brand new episode. We appreciate you listening, and we appreciate all our guests, including Shawn, thank you so much Shawn for taking the time. Guys, thank you for listening. We will see you next week. My name is Peter Shankman. And remember the ADHD and all forms of neurodiversity is probably the best thing that ever happened to you. We will see you next week. Stay safe. Talk to you soon.

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Skye Rapson is an academic and coach with over seven years of experience working in adult education. Skye has studied in various fields, including Psychology, Sociology, and Public Health, and is now a Doctoral Candidate in Population Health. She was diagnosed with ADHD at the start of her doctorate. Since then, Skye has dedicated her time to researching and disseminating ADHD studies, founding Unconventional Organisation in 2020 to provide ADHD adults and managers with strengths-based, neurodiverse-friendly ADHD coaching and workshops. We’re learning about how and why she began, today. Enjoy!

In this episode Peter and Skye discuss:  

00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:01 - Intro and welcome Skye Rapson!  Ref: Interview with Sally Willbanks, founder of ND Renegade [actually based in Australia]

01:57 - So you were diagnosed at the beginning of your PhD program?

03:00 - What changed and maybe made more sense after your diagnosis?

03:39 - Ref: Interview with Rachel Cotton, another PhD student w/ ADHD

04:00 - How did your priorities shift?

04:27 - What Skye found of from her peer group at university

05:55 - Let’s talk about your “Unconventional Organization” Ref: Her podcast: Unconventional Organisation with Skye Rapson and her coaching service: https://www.unconventionalorganisation.com

06:54 - What kinds of trends did you find when you started conversing with other neurodiverse folks?

07:42 - On changing the way we get things accomplished 

08:40 - What would you now tell your 15-year-old self?

09:03 - How can people find more about you? Web: https://www.unconventionalorganisation.com Socials: @unconventionalorganisation on INSTA and Facebook 

09:24 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

09:58 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits 

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

[00:00:37] Peter: Hey everyone, Peter. Shankman welcome. The episode of Faster Than Normal today is a PhD. We seem to be doing a lot of doctoral candidates lately. I don't know why doctoral candidates seem to get diagnosed, but maybe cuz they're smart enough to know that something's not, uh, normal, like other people. And they're like, Hey, let's figure that out. But either way we get another one here. Her name is Skye Rapson and Skye's an academic coach with over seven years of experience working at adult education, she has studied in various fields, including psychology, sociology. and public health and is now a doctoral candidate in population health in New Zealand. So we are a long way from home today. She was diagnosed with ADHD at the start of her doctorate. And since then, she's dedicated time to researching and disseminating ADHD studies, founding unconventional organization in 2020 to provide ADHD, adults and managers with strength based neurodiverse friendly ADHD, coaching and workshop. Skye, welcome. 

[00:01:35] Skye: Hi. Yeah. Great to be here. 

[00:01:37] Peter: Good to have you here. So ADHD, you know, it, it's interesting. We had, we have there's someone else from New Zealand who we've had on the podcast. Um, she runs, uh, oh God, what's the name, but neuro neuro it's line of t-shirts neuro… Oh, I'm spacing on it now. I have one of them. It's awesome. Awesome shirt. I'll remember it, but, and we'll put it in the liner notes, but yeah. Um, long way from home. So good to have you, you were diagnosed at the beginning of your PhD, uh, beginning of your doctoral research. Yeah. 

[00:02:04] Skye: Yeah, no, I was diagnosed. I actually thought I had, um, dyslexia. I went in, um, postmasters. Um, so I'd done my masters and. It was good, but it was tough. And, um, right at the end, I thought I should probably go and see if I, if I might have dyslexia. I know it, you know, it's something that my family have talked about potentially having. Um, and I came out, um, several weeks later with an ADHD. Uh, you know, you probably have ADHD and a couple of other things as well. 

[00:02:30] Peter: So you were surprised you were surprised at that. 

[00:02:32] Skye: Yeah, it, it made a lot of sense. I mean, you wrote out, read out all the different things I'd studied, you know, tell me you have ADHD without telling me you have ADHD. I kept getting to the end of a degree and being like, well, you know, this might not be for me. I think I need to switch to a totally different area and learn a totally different subject. Um, and so, um, you know, in hindsight it made a lot of sense and I learned about ADHD, but I hadn't put the pieces together in, in. Fit my life. 

[00:02:58] Peter: Amazing. What, tell me about what it was sort of like sort of the wake up call once you were diagnosed, what sort of started to make sense?

[00:03:05] Skye: Yeah. So in terms of what made sense, I, I really focused on understanding why I was burning out because what I was experiencing was a period, you know, up until that point, I'd done a year generally at a time, you know? And so I would, I would study something really intensely for a year, work on it, stay up all night, you know, do weekends. And then I would burn out and I would need a break. And then I would be like, well, I guess maybe this isn't the subject for me and I'd come back and I would do something else. And that was very much how my ADHD was, was manifesting. 

[00:03:39] Peter: Now I believe that we had a, another PhD on the podcast named Rachel Cotton. She was one of our first interviews and she always talked about how, uh, she thought it was perfectly normal to live on, you know, uh, 14 caffeine tablets away. Yeah. , you know, um, But no I get that. So, so talk about, um, after you got diagnosed and, and things sort of changing, what, how did your priority shift?

[00:04:01] Skye: Yeah, so, so one of the first things I actually did was I, um, I created a community in my university of other people who were postgraduate, um, who were also neuro diverse. I had worked in adult education for a really long time. Um, I'd done a lot of tutoring in universities and I'd sort of told myself when I started the PhD, I'm not gonna do that. Cuz you know, I, I tended to take on too many classes and it was distracting from actually doing the writing. Um, and then when I found out I had ADHD, I was like, oh, but like, you know, one group won't hurt. And so I started I started a group and um, and started connecting with people and learning as much as possible, not just from the research, which. You know, later on writing about, but the very first thing I started to do was to talk to other people. Who'd had those same experiences. 

[00:04:48] Peter: And what did you find out? 

[00:04:49] Skye: I found out that people were kind of frustrated with the university system, um, in terms of, you know, how it fit and how it worked with how they worked. And I think that was really, um, really helpful for me because it meant I didn't spend too long sitting in that space of feeling like it was just me, which so many people with ADHD, I know had that feeling because I immediately was launched into the space of, oh, we're all experiencing these struggles.

[00:05:15] Peter: And it was sort of one of those lessons. I remember sort of the same thing when I finally got diagnosed, everything started to make sense. Part of me was pissed off because, you know, I, I, I I'd spent so much energy. Mm-hmm over the course of my life fighting things that, that, you know, swimming upstream when I didn't really have mm-hmm I'd just gone with the flow. It would've been that much easier.

[00:05:31] Skye: Yeah. Yeah, no, it's definitely, it's definitely, um, a tough thing. And, you know, there was a little bit. Sadness as well. I think to look back on my more was at that point, my twenties, um, and realize that, yeah, it had just been a different, if I'd known a slightly different way of working, it wasn't that it had to be hugely different, but just some adjustments, it could have been so much easier.

[00:05:55] Peter: So let's talk about, uh, unconventional organization. Tell me about it. 

[00:05:58] Skye: Yeah. So, um, I started on unconventional organization in 2020, um, after I'd, you know, worked with the universities, I started working with schools and then when, uh, COVID hit and we all had to go back to our homes. I was looking for an opportunity to keep doing what I really loved to do, which is connect with people and work with people. Um, and I found ADHD coaching. And so I started doing that alongside at that point, um, writing articles. Cause I really wanted to learn more if I was gonna do this kind of space properly, I wanted to learn about the research. And so I, um, started writing articles and challenging myself to put them up every week as a way of, of, you know, keeping myself accountable for that. And, um, those two things sort of ballooned into, into what we have now with, um, you know, people who are training to become coaches with us, um, who also have ADHD. And then also having that, um, that research space as well. 

[00:06:51] Peter: And what did you, so tell me what, one of the interesting things I always, I always ask, what did you find when you started conversing with other people and being like, Hey, we share the same brain. Right? What kind of trends did you, did you find? 

[00:07:02] Skye: I found that people were working a lot harder than people realize people with ADHD. I, I found that a lot of the people that I spoke to would come to me and they'd say, I'm not getting enough done. I need to, you know, and even the people that, you know, the coaches would often come to us as well. And, you know, say I haven't been, I haven't been achieving at the level that I want to, and then I'd ask them what they're doing, because that's part of coaching. We get very specific about what your day looks like and people were spending a lot of time trying to work. And, and in that way they were expending a lot of energy. It just wasn't necessarily, um, giving them the outcome that they were looking for. 

[00:07:40] Peter: Right. And one of the things you learn is that, is that it's sort of a self limiting, uh, prophecy, because you wind up expending all this energy. You're not getting the results. So you try harder and it's still the same thing. Right. So you, so you, you're going down this rabbit hole and you can't win. 

[00:07:53] Skye: Yeah, no, exactly. And then, and then the worst part, you know, at least for us was that people would say, oh, well then I don't deserve to have a break. I don't deserve to have fun. And so we'd end up in this sort of self-fulfilling cycle of just, you know, not getting the dopamine, working hard, feeling like you don't deserve to get a break. So you definitely don't get the Domine and you're continuing to keep trying.

[00:08:13] Peter: Right. And so I guess one of the best lessons there is change the way you try. 

[00:08:18] Skye: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And, and it's about, you know, we think about it in terms of experimentation. We often say, you know, if something doesn't work or it doesn't work for you, we just keep, we just keep adapting it. We just, we just check it out and go. That's interesting, that doesn't work. And then, you know, in, in the case of working with the coach, you come back and you say, Hey, that doesn't work for me. And they go, that's fine. Like we can adjust it. 

[00:08:41] Peter: Right. What would you have told your 15 year old self, if you knew, if you knew that and what you know now? 

[00:08:46] Skye: That's a really good question. I think I would tell my 15 year old self. It's not about finding the perfect career. It's about finding the perfect environment. 

[00:08:56] Peter: Oh good. Oh, I like that a lot. That's a great quote, great quote. Oh, I like, yeah. I really, really love that. Yeah. Um, Skye, how can people find more about you? How can they get, 

[00:09:05] Skye: yeah, you can find us, um, at, [Web: https://www.unconventionalorganisation.com Socials: @unconventionalorganisation on INSTA and Facebook ] um, unconventionalorganization.com, uh, with a Z or with an S depending on which country you're from. Um, we also have, um, a lot of articles about different strategies you can use on the website as well as. And then ADHD coaching as well. 

[00:09:22] Peter: Awesome. Well, I love this sky. Thank you so much for taking the time. I appreciate it all the way from New Zealand. What time is it over there?

[00:09:27] Skye:  Um, it is 5:40 AM . 

[00:09:30] Peter: Okay. So either time to get up, or time to go to bed; I'm gonna assume time to get up.

[00:09:32] Skye: Time to get up!

[00:09:34] Peter: Skye, thanks for taking the time guys. Thanks for listening. You know, the drill, uh, fasternormal.com. Leave a, uh, review anywhere you like iTune, stitcher or Google play, whatever I'm at Peter Shankman, we're faster, normal on Twitter, faster than normal on Instagram, everywhere. And we'll be back next week with another interview of someone just as awesome because of that is what we do.
We will see you soon. Thanks for listening

 

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Gökçen Şahin, M.Sc., who successfully completed her master's degree in Genetics, has just registered for the PhD program to start her education this fall. Technological advances in the field of genetics in the last 20 years have brought with it a large pile of data waiting to be made sense of. Gökçen will do her PhD in bioinformatics in order to learn how to draw meaningful conclusions from these data and to find solutions for this purpose. Gökçen, who loves to learn new things and is curious, developed a machine learning model in her thesis that can predict the muscle heteroplasmy ratio of patients with given demographic features, family history, and clinical table caused by a mitochondrial DNA point mutation causing mitochondrial diseases. She made these by learning everything herself. She reviewed more than 450 publications fastidiously and worked with doctors to generate her data. Gokcen, who wants to improve herself in this field, wants to have a solid foundation. Therefore, she decided to take her education in this field. Gökçen actually qualified to enter another PhD program last year for the same purpose and started her education. During this period, she was diagnosed with ADHD in December and in January, she learned that she is autistic. While the diagnoses were a great shock at first, she shared her diagnoses with her supervisor in order to pass this period in a healthy way. Afterwards, she was exposed to various mobbing by this supervisor. The severity of mobbing had increased over time. And in February, she was fired by him from the PhD program in an e-mail. Not long after, her ex-boyfriend's family, who learned that she is autistic and ADHDer, did not want them to get married, and they broke up after a 2-year relationship, which was a first for Gökçen. She had many reasons to lose hope. But the opposite happened. The diagnoses resulted in her accepting herself. She faced many challenges throughout her life and she saw that the challenges she experienced was the result of not being accepted as she was. Realizing this, she wanted to go on further and apply for a new program, but she also had fears. She explained everything to her new supervisor before application. And she was encouraged by new supervisor to apply for the program. Now she's telling people that “Being autistic and ADHD is part of the diversity in nature and being able to live as ourselves, to be free of masks is what we have a right to do. The only thing that can hinder this view is when we begin to look at ourselves as people who do not accept us as we are. When we come back from this mistake, we start living a healthy life. Because not being able to be what we are, not being accepted is ignoring us and it hurts. Nobody has the right to this. We are a part of nature, just like everything else." This is a great one- enjoy!

 

In this episode Peter and Gökçen discuss:  

00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

00:50 - Apologies for the near horrid audio- Peter is still in a hotel.

00:56 - Intro and welcome Gökçen Şahin!

02:45 - Your story is incredible; and it’s frustrating professors would still be so ignorant!

03:21 - So you said that you wrote something out that you wanted to share with us, feel free! 

03:35 - On being accepted for PhD programs

04:03 - On the first meeting with her supervisor/professor

04:51 - On the 2nd meeting with her supervisor

05:50 - What happened next?

08:16 - A little while later…

08:45 - Studying about ADHD

10:00 - On being diagnosed by a child psychologist and then given meds

10:19 - Her professor’s reaction

11:05 - Back to the psychologist

11:51 - On being made a study and the discovery of Autism

13:00 - Amazing. A couple of questions…

13:15 - The fallout and heartbreak

14:00 - Did you go back to your former professor?

15:05 - What types of things that you used to think were negatives, do you now understand to be positives?

15:56 - Fun fact: Your subconscious mind controls about 80percent of what you think; be mindful in your self-talk/inner dialogue. 

16:24 - On being happy inside and being kind to yourself!

17:44 - What advice would you give to someone who has been told that they are broken?

17:55 - THIS PART.  RIGHT HERE.

19:56 - What happened with her new supervisor?

21:30 - How can people find more about you? @GKCNSHN on Twitter

21:30 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

21:40 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits 

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

[00:00:40] Hey guys, Peter, Shankman welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal. Unfortunately, again, I'm still recording from a hotel. Uh, we should be back in my apartment within a week or so, but oh my God, has it been not fun? Anyway, I do wanna talk about something fun today. I have an amazing story here I was on Twitter and someone tagged me in a post and said, you've gotta read what's going on here. And I was introduced to a one whose name. Uh I'm I'm despite my best efforts, I'm probably gonna screw up and I wanna say it's Gokcen shine and I'm pretty, I'm sure I'm relatively close there, but lemme tell you something about Gokcen was in a. PhD program. And, uh, she was doing her PhD in bioinformatics in order to learn how to draw meaningful conclusions from data and find solutions. She was, she loved new things; she's very curious. She discovered a machine learning model and her thesis that could predict the muscle hetero PLAs ratio of patients with given demographic features basically stuff way beyond my pay grade. Right. She's dealing with Mitocondrial DNA, uh, point mutation. I mean, incredible stuff. So what happens. She gets into another PhD program and gets diagnosed with ADHD in January. She learns that she has ADHD and learns that she's autistic. And while this diagnosis works a great shock to her, she shared a diagnosis with a supervisor, and guess what happened with her supervisor? Her supervisor fired her from her PhD program via email! Okay. That's like breaking up with someone over a text message, not cool! Okay. And then after that, her ex-boyfriend's family or her boyfriend at the time who learned that she was a autistic and ADHD, did not want them to get married and they broke up a over a 2 year relationship. Unbelievable. But despite having many reasons to lose hope the opposite happened and the diagnosis resulted in G accepting herself and saw these challenges for what they were through her life, realizing that she applied for a new program. Got in. And now she tells everyone that being autistic and ADHD is part of the diversity in nature. And being able to live as ourselves to be free of masks is what we have a right to do. I am so excited to talk to you. Thank you so much for being here today Gokcen. 

[00:02:41] Gokcen: Uh, thank you so much for inviting me, Peter, 

[00:02:44] Peter: uh, an amazing, an amazing story. I, I, I, I, I remember reading it on Twitter and just being blown away that, that, that, you know, of, of all things, professors could still be that, uh, closed mind truly, truly just incredible.

[00:02:58] Gokcen: Actually leaving it was very hard, but eventually I just, uh, get something at you get new thing at you then .Right now I'm totally okay. 

[00:03:10] Peter: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like, it sounds like you took this, you know, as, as, as difficult as it was, you saw this as an opportunity and, and, you know, used it to your, to your advantage.

[00:03:20] Gokcen: Sure, sure. 

[00:03:21] Peter: So, so you said that you wrote something out that you wanted to share with us, feel free. 

[00:03:25] Gokcen: Yes. Okay. Uh, you can just, uh, cut me if I exceed the time. 

[00:03:29] Peter: really not a problem. Go ahead. Okay, go ahead.

[00:03:32] Gokcen: Uh, just let me mention about myself a bit. I completed my master on genetics in 2021. I am accepted to PhD program and I will, uh, start my education in the field of bioformatics and system biology in this semester. I was actually accepted to PhD program last year, too. Uh, three acceptance. Actually, I got three acceptance last year from three different universities. In the one that I choose I was fired after six months by my supervisor. Uh, I met with him on 6th of July, 2021. In the meeting I mentioned about my background, about my thesis, about my current knowledge in this field and I, um, What I want to do, et cetera. And he spoke very positively about my answers. Uh, and he said, a few people at your level can answer these questions so well, you know why you did what you did. Um, so I said to him that I didn't get any education on this topic. I. In my thesis, uh, I just did something learning on internet, et cetera, but I didn't get any, um, base education on this topic so I need someone to guide me. I'm looking for, um, my master and he said, okay. 

In the second meeting, uh, he wanted me to prepare a project, uh, based on my performance. I will get a chance to apply. I finished my project and email, but he was kind of person that don't answer emails. Meanwhile, I was accepted by two other universities. I dunno why, but I see him as someone that I can trust, but I was totally wrong. Anyway, uh, I sent so many emails to myself, to him. Eventually he wrote something like this. Uh, you are a person who tries to do a given test properly. Is determined by technically needs to move forward. However, I think it will not cause any problems with study. So then I, I applied, accepted government accepted me, a university accepted me in the interview. Supervisor accepted me. So, um, let's start .

Our courses was removed. Uh, however, I went to Institute for a journal club and was going meet with my friends, uh, my team friends. Uh, we were supposed to meet with each other. I expected that they will introduce themselves. Ask my name, myth[?] With me, ask about my background, et cetera. Just some friendly talking, but it didn't happen. They were really cold people. After journal club I went our teams room supervisor came too. Uh, he started to talk with his students. They got along very well in a kind of manner that I don't have any idea. Supervisor, um, open potato chips package. He offered to everyone in the room. I politely said that I didn't want, um, he asked why; I said that I have a high intolerance to lactose and I cannot eat packaged foods. Then very interestingly, he got very closer to my ear, very closer and started to eat potato chips there. It was not nice at all, but I thought that probably this was how they make jokes. Um, because I can't understand jokes most of the time. And I. even can't understand why they are made. Um, while he was eating chips. I, he wanted me to ask a question to him. I asked, uh, why he put advanced statistics in the first term while introductory statistics in the second term, he started to laugh again and with his students and said, oh, did I really do this? Oh my God. And last lovely. Um, In the period of this course choice he didn't say anything to me. Um, so these two courses actually was his own courses, but he didn't warn me. He accepted my course choices and not surprisingly, I couldn't succeed because I was almost your own statistics. And this course what was advanced, I said to him, I wish you would inform me at the beginning, but I will, uh, I said that I will fail in this course and take first of all the introductory course and take this course again later. He said, OK.

Uh, one day he called me to his room, uh, take a white paper in front of him, asked me, do you know this topic. I said, no, he wrote the paper. Do you know, this topic. I said, no; he wrote the paper. Uh, he wrote so many topics that I didn't know about. And he said, okay, go and study them. You should be ready because you are here to do my job. I will do my job. Uh, you will do my job, then I will be able to look something else. Um, I didn't like this attitude at all. I didn't study, I couldn't study what he gave me because this is not the way that I can study. Uh, But eventually he started to get angry with me. Uh, these times I was wondering so much about ADHD, uh, because my psychologist thought that I have. She was, um, nervous because uh, she also got a diagnosis for a while ago and she told me about the common traits that we share. And then I started to study so deeply on ADHD in a kind of manner that hyperfocus . I was collecting my traits to tell all of them to my psychiatrist. Uh, the hospital that I'm going is a medical hospital of Istanbul for, of medicine of Istanbul university. So doctors are working there with rotation, for education. Each doctor see patients for just one month. Uh, when I went to hospital for ADHD evauation , this was maybe the only chance that I have got in my whole life because doctor was a child psychiatrist She evaluated me. It was the 24th of December 2021 I diagnosed with ADHD . Gave me a drug after this session. She said she wanted to see again, very soon. I thought that she will probably ask me whether the drugs work or not. 

I told, um, my diagnosis to my supervisor, I was waiting some understanding, but instead he said that, um, a man without hands cannot be a Shoemaker and no matter how much he wants. But if he works hard, he can become a marathon runner. Maybe he [you] should try another sector. I. Trying to explain that ADHD is not a kind of attention deficit, actually. It's a problem of regularizing of pay attention wherever we can focus, whatever we do more than neurotypicals. But he didn't seem to understand at all. And maybe didn't listen at all. Um, it was 12th of January. I went to a hospital again, I told my psychiatrist that, um, about this, uh, supervisor's unpleasant behavior. And she told me to relax because she said no one had right to kick me out of the schools. I informed her about the effect of drug. Then she asked me tons of questions I didn't understand because these questions was not related with medicine or ADHD. After this session she just said that she wanted to invite me to their department community meeting with the justification of I was their patient for long and she wanted, uh, her professor also evaluate me. Then I said, okay, but this wasn't seem normal to me after going home. I checked each, each question and still didn't understand and what is them about? I Google check [unintelligible] five, watch videos, one thing, but I got shocked.

Me? Autism? Is that possible? Then the face to face community meeting the professor who is the head of the psychiatric department of the hospital, and almost all psychs of the hospital was there approximately 20, 30 doctors. And this time professor asked me so many questions and all of them evaluated. I shared my bad language too, because I sit to someone, uh, after the meeting, my own psych took me her room and explained that I'm autistic. Uh, it was 26th of January this year. Uh, so, and my age is 29. It's surprising. 

[00:12:55] Peter: So, uh, it it's, let me, let me interrupt just, just for a minute, because I, I, I am, I am grateful to you for telling your story. I have, I have a couple of questions that I, I think my audience would wanna know are on the answer to as well. What, what did you, when you were told by your professor that a Shoemaker cannot make shoes, if he doesn't have hands, how did that make you feel? 

[00:13:15] Gokcen: Terrible because you feel like you don't have an ability to think, have an ability, don't have an ability to do something. Uh, you don't have a brain. You cannot think, you cannot be a scientist. Uh, these are, these are incredibly bad things. And, uh, you know what happens in after he said all this to me, I started to cry very deeply and he just look at me with a cold face and it was really horrible. 

[00:13:54] Peter: When you let's fast forward to when you were accepted into your new program? Um, I'm I was curious, you didn't mention this. Did you at all, at any point, go back to this professor and tell him that you were, that you made into this new program? 

[00:14:08] Gokcen: Uh, no, I didn't. I didn't. 

[00:14:11] Peter: Do you have any desire to do that? 

[00:14:14] Gokcen: Uh, actually, I have a really big desire to tell him, um, in a, in maybe I know government education department or something. I really don't want to see him again anymore.

[00:14:30] Peter: Right. I understand that. It just seems to me that, that I think there's, you know, for what he's done and had the way he did it, uh, there should be some consequences for him. Um, you know, that's a, obviously a bigger story, but I do think that that's something you shouldn't, shouldn't just let go. 

[00:14:45] Gokcen: Um, and I will tell, um, more about what he did. Actually. There is so much bad things too, and it's coming. 

[00:14:55] Peter: Well, let's focus. Let's focus on the positives for a second. So let's fast forward to the point where you were accepted into the new program. Yes. What have you noticed? What have you noticed about yourself since your diagnosis? What types of things that you used to think were negatives are, do you now understand to be positives and things like that?

[00:15:14] Gokcen: Uh, could you repeat the question again, please? 

[00:15:17] Peter: Um, now that you're diagnosed, you know, for instance, I'll give you an example. My, uh, my ability to, to multitask I realize is a, is a positive, but when I was in school, uh, it was framed as not being able to pay attention. And so I thought it was a negative. Yes. Right. Once I was diagnosed with ADHD, I realized that it could be a positive. So I'm, I'm curious as to what sort of things that, that you might have thought of as bad things, um, have you since maybe sort of rethought of as possibly good things now that you understand sort of where your, how your brain works. 

[00:15:53] Gokcen: Um, actually, there are lots of things like that until to the diagnosis I always thought that I am weird because everybody in your environment say that you are weird. And when they say until that age, when everybody say this, eventually you also believe them. Um, but I actually, without thinking them, I was already happy in my inside. I couldn't show it to the people, but I was happy too inside because I was, um, I love, uh, in, in a way that what makes me Gokcen and everything. Every trait of autism or ADHD, give me that they are my traits and this is, these are my parts. And I love myself. Uh, but after diagnosis, I can say it loudly that I love myself. 

[00:16:54] Peter: I think that that in itself is an amazing story right there. The fact that you've been able to; understanding sort of how your brain works has allowed you to be kinder to yourself, right? 

[00:17:04] Gokcen: Sure. Because I able to make this master thesis, which is very, uh, hard actually in that time, I didn't know any knowledge about machine learning and I apply and even I created my own data set. Uh, examining more than, uh, 450 articles. This was a huge job. And needs a really strong attention. So this is why ADHD is my superpower and autism, my superpower. Um, yes. 

[00:17:44] Peter: What would you tell, what would you tell students or people who were in your position who might have been told that they were broken as well? What would you, what advice would you give to them? 

[00:17:55] Gokcen: Um, the thing that really saved my life is, um, just accept yourself as you are, because you are incredible, whatever other people say. Um, And be always kind. This is for everyone. Uh, as Robin Williams said, this, the quote that I love so much: Everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know, nothing about. Be kind, always. Because until the time of the diagnosis, I had so many tons of psychological problems. I even stay one month in mental health hospital, like a prison. I suicide twice, uh, heavy drugs. Therapies, tons of therapies. None of them worked. Everybody thought that you are not normal. You just want, don't want to be alive. But, um, but this is not true. Because if you can discover yourself, this is a gift, not a curse. Yeah. And after diagnosing all of the psychological problems just gone away. And I just right now use just one drug and this is for, to, to make it gradually decrease. Uh, and very soon that I will give up all the medicines I will take none of them. 

[00:19:26] Peter: That is wonderful. What a great, what a great story. I love that, you know, when I saw your original tweet, I was sort of blown away about how anyone could be that sort of close-minded, um, especially in education where you're supposed to have an open mind, you're supposed to, uh, embrace that. But, um, it seems to me Gokcen that you've definitely come out on top of this, that you have, you have come out the winner in this story, and I hope that you keep writing and I hope that you keep tweeting and keep sharing your story with the world because you're an inspiration. 

[00:19:54] Gokcen: Thank you so much. Uh, what happened lastly, I wanna share with you. I told my new supervisor about a bit about my situation, and she said; uh, you have had a bad experience, but, uh, don't be discouraged. I'm sure that, uh, you will be much more happier in here. Uh, there are bad peoples in the world, but fortunately they're good ones too. I am grateful to her. Uh, but when I said that I'm grateful she to accepted me, she said that I didn't do anything. You deserve it. We evaluated you as we did to all students. And you deserve it. This is so precious because people pity you uh, about your autism about your ADHD, and this is especially so in my country. But my dear supervisor treated me like she tries to everyone and she didn't show sympathy because I'm autistic. She said I was accepted because I deserved; this is so precious.

[00:21:00] Peter: I love that. I love that. What a wonderful story. Gokcen, Thank you so much for taking the time. My pleasure. Give us your, give us your Twitter account so people can follow you. 

[00:21:09] Gokcen: Uh, sure. Um, my, my, uh, name with, uh, letters, uh, G K C N S H N. This is my Twitter. Thank you so much. 

[00:21:21] Peter: This. Awesome. Thank, thank you so much for taking the time. We're definitely gonna have you back in several months to talk about, to give us an update on what's going on. 

[00:21:28] Gokcen: Thank you so much. You can. 

[00:21:30] Peter: All right guys, as always, thanks for listening to fast than normal. We will see you next week with a brand new episode. Hopefully I'll be back in my office and not in our hotel room and we will talk to you soon. Stay safe, stay well. 

 

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Ashley Brown teaches Coastal Kayaking, Stand Up Paddleboarding, and Instructor Development at the College of Charleston. She has developed these paddlesports courses over the past decade to include Sustainability Literacy and a First Year Experience course with a Biology class. Learning about sustainability and sharing it with the students led Ashley to start a Masters of Art at Prescott College in Outdoor Education Leadership. She only has a few more classes before she finishes her degree. Ashley shares her passion for teaching kayaking at all levels and challenging people to test their limits while learning and having a ton of fun. She has been developing a curriculum in Kayaking, SUP, and Instructor Development at the College of Charleston, where Ashley serves as an Adjunct Professor.  Ashley is the recipient of the American Canoe Association 2019 Excellence in Instruction Award.  This award is presented annually to an ACA member for outstanding contributions to paddlesports education and instruction. She earned the prestigious Level 5 American Canoe Association Advanced Open Water Coastal Kayaking Instructor Certification and is also an ACA Level 4 Kayak Instructor Trainer, Canoe Instructor, and L2 Standup Paddleboard Instructor. Ashley serves as a member of the executive committee of the Safety, Education, and Instruction Committee for the American Canoe Association. She loves to travel and has gone from Canada to Mexico and beyond, sharing her talent and knowledge with clubs, groups, schools, outfitters, events, and symposiums. Residing in Charleston, SC, she enjoys welcoming guests from all over the world to paddle in Charleston’s beautiful waterways.  One of her favorite venues is the “Edge of America”, the Atlantic Ocean off Folly Beach.  She provides paddlers an opportunity to have an exciting experience and widen their perspectives. Today we’re talking about how and why she got diagnosed, how an ADHD/ADD brain can often serve as a prerequisite, and what being buoyant may do for the ADHD in you! Enjoy!

—— 

In this episode Peter and Ashley discuss:  

00:45 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

00:50 - Apologies for the near horrid audio- Peter is in a tourist-filled lobby today.

01:05 - Intro and welcome Ashley Brown!

01:53 - When were you first diagnosed and how did it happen?

03:00 - What was the first big change you felt after your diagnosis?

03:56 - What inspired you to seek out aquatic sports & activities; and to teach them?

05:33 - Do you experience sort of a rebirth every time you go kayaking; like I do when skydiving or running?

06:00 - On the good kind of exhaustion and a completely focused flow. 

07:18 - How does scanning a wave, being outdoors and on the water help your ADHD?

08:56 - I had never thought of ADHD/ADD as a requirement for something! For what else could ADHD possibly be a prerequisite?

09:40 - On the importance of physical movement!

11:30 - How can people find more about you? [Ashley isn’t a public figure but you can check into her courses via Web: www.wavepaddler.com and on their Facebook page here]

12:34 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

19:08 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits 

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat:

[00:00:38] Peter Shankman good morning. I am coming to you today from the lounge at a Hilton in Midtown Manhattan because, uh, my apartment was supposed to be finished two weeks ago for all my renovations and it's not, and I am living the Dylan McKay life here in New York Hilton in Midtown. For those not old enough to understand what the Dylan McKee lifestyle is? Well, look it up. Your parents knew. Anyway, welcome to another episode Faster Than Normal. Uh, I apologize in advance for all the background noise. Ashley Brown is joining us today. Ashley, get this we're going outdoors today, even though I'm sitting in a lounge in mid Manhattan, we're going outdoors. The great big ocean. to the coast. We're gonna talk to Ashley Brown who teaches coastal kayaking standup paddle boarding and instructed development of the college of Charleston. She's ADHD. She's developed these paddle sports courses over the past decade to include sustainability literacy and her first year experience course to the biology class. This is a very, very cool stuff. She got diagnosed when her kid did, as we hear so much about .Ashley, welcome to Faster Than Normal. Let's talk about some outdoors and how it relates to ADHD. 

[00:01:39] Ashley: Hi! Hi, thank you so much for having me. And, um, I am really excited to talk to you. I've enjoyed listening to your podcast and I have to admit I'm a bit nervous. I hope that I hope this goes well. 

[00:01:51] Peter: . You're gonna be, you're gonna be fine. Don't worry about it. So tell me when you tell me when you first got diagnosed and how did it happen? 

[00:01:56] Ashley: Um, my daughter was in around third grade and, um, she had hit like unbelievable benchmarks in, in, in intelligence as a, as a little kid, you know, when they do those, pull you out, testing things to put 'em in gifted and talented and stuff. And then suddenly she couldn't read, you know, she wasn't reading, uh, at her, at her pace had had had just stopped. So we discovered that she had dyslexia and, uh, ADHD, and, uh, as we are moving through all those, those categories, I'm going, yep. That's me. That's me. That's me. And of course, this is something that, um, I, I understand a lot of adults have had that experience. So, so I got diagnosed when she got diagnosed and, uh, same thing, dyslexia, ADHD, and, uh, it's, it's interesting to hit it at, you know, 40 versus eight, you know, so 

[00:02:55] Peter: I was gonna say, so you lived your life, not knowing anything about it, sort of similar to the way I did. I didn't get diagnosed in my late thirties and, um, what was the, what was sort of the first cha big changes that you saw in yourself once you, once you got that diagnosis? 

[00:03:06] Ashley: Um, changes in myself, I guess, I guess maybe just like forgiving myself for being me, I don't know. Um, like suddenly.

[00:03:20] Peter: That's actually a, that's a pretty huge answer. A pretty huge answer. Cause a lot of people don't realize that I, I went through the same thing.

[00:03:25] Ashley: Yeah, no, I, uh, I always just, you know, why can't you do your taxes on time? Why can't, why do you have to work at a de at a critical deadline? Like, why can't you do this ahead of time? Like, um, so many of. So many other things that ADHD, people struggle with. Like, um, and I, I guess I cut myself a little more slack, not enough, not, not enough, but a lot more slack than I used to. Like now I have a reason, you know?

[00:03:53] Peter: Well, we'll never cut ourselves enough slack that's for darn sure. But, okay. So tell me about how outdoors, how did you, first of all, how'd you get started in, in the classes of paddle boarding and kayak and all that, all that stuff outdoors. And what prompted you to say, Hey, there should be, there should be a school or classes.

[00:04:07] Ashley: Well, um, so it, the, all the school and the classes are there it's, um, I didn't create that, but I just brought it in a different venue. So, um, I, um, I was, I, my first career was an artist and an art teacher and I was, uh, teaching. and it, it just, it just, you know, it, it's a pretty punishing, um, field. Uh, and I, I, I never was super successful with it. And then teaching children and then having children, it was just so many children and so much mess in my life that I, uh, I had a neighbor who said, Hey, you should come kayaking. And I went kayaking with a bunch of adults who I didn't have to clean up after. And I was like, ah, I can do this. And I, um, I just made some, made some major changes and I really went. Uh, full force into kayaking and stand and, uh, and then loved it. And I live in a place I live in Charleston, South Carolina, and, um, there is nothing but water around here. So there's so many places to explore and so many, uh, dynamic environments to, uh, get to know. So, um, I shifted from teaching, uh, children to taking people on kayak tours and all this stuff. And then, um, I met an instructor with the College of Charleston and, and. Uh, opened up some doors to me and I, I ended up with a full-time job teaching, uh, paddle sports at, uh, college level. 

[00:05:31] Peter: I'm gonna go into a limb and say that paddle boarding or paddle sports or anything like that is similar for the brain as skydiving or running is for me. Would that be correct? Are you, is it a rebirth for you every time you do. 

[00:05:42] Ashley: Rebirth. Hmm. I don't know. I don't know, rebirth and it, and it, and it is exciting and fun. And particularly when you do surf, so I'm guessing that skydiving and, and actually hearing that crashing wave behind you kind of stuff is this is similar.

[00:05:57] Peter: Tell me how you feel when you're done. You come back to land. 

[00:05:59] Ashley: The good exhaustion. Just space, that's it? Yeah. That's yeah. Um, so, and, and when I, when I bring people into it, I love their, uh, reaction to it. And I love the layering cuz. And I think that this is one of the things that I was that I wrote to you and the reason I wanted to, to talk to you, and I think that the layering of, of understanding the environment and watching the student and understanding where the student is is, has it. It it's that flow, right? Where you, where your brain is working on all the levels in the environment you're in. This is, this is probably the only thing I've ever done, where I wasn't also having a conversation with, you know, somebody from a year ago and writing a grocery list, you know, at all three going on at the same time. So, so it is the only place where my entire, where all of my attention is, is layered into there. So, so I love that. And then that puts me in that good exhaustion.

[00:06:56] Peter: Well, there's a level of focus there, right? I mean, you absolutely, you have no choice. You have to look at what you're doing. You have to focus on what you're doing. You have to pay attention to what you're doing. You can't do a hundred of those things. It's the same thing with skydiving and, and for people with ADHD, we don't often realize that we realize that is the, the level at which we thrive! 

[00:07:11] Ashley: Right. Exactly. Exactly. It's um, it is definitely the level where you thrive.

[00:07:18] Peter: Tell me about, um, how it helps, how doing that helps your ADHD. Tell me about, uh, sort of how your brain reacts to that kinda stuff to, to being outdoors, to being on the water, to, to scanning the wave. 

[00:07:29] Ashley: Okay. Um, so, so I came in to ADHD later, I did not understand the dopamine thing. Um, Prior to it, but now I understand and I, and I seek the, and I identify the things that give me that pleasure, that dopamine rush. So sometimes you're bored out of your mind of course, but then when you, when you can find the things that are giving you pleasure, like the, like moving very quickly through the water or looking at a reflection of a surface and, and, um, and so seeking those things has, or, or, you know, seeking that experience through somebody else's experience. So I'm watching, I'm watching 20 year olds figure out how to make their body work in a new way and how to make a boat, move, move through waves and stuff in a, in a, um, in a, something that they're not familiar with. It is, it is exciting in, and then that really does feed the, um, that dopamine receptor, I suppose. And, um, gives me a pleasure that, that, uh, I don't know that I, that I, I guess I had is with an art with art, but I had gotten so done with it with art. But anyway, um.

[00:08:40] Peter: That's a good answer. I wanna read something that you wrote in, in your email to me, you said, I think that or ADHD is practically a requirement for outdoor educators. They problem solve on the go keep people safe while putting them in intentionally risky situations and manage their expectations to keep it engaging, but not scary. You know, I've never thought of it that way. ADHD is a requirement for something, right. We always look at it as a gift and, and, and something beneficial. I've never thought it as a requirement. I wonder what other things a ADD could be a requirement for? What do you think? 

[00:09:08] Ashley: Um, gosh, I don't know. Um, the, the it's back to that multi layering thing, it's, it's, it's seeing some body and their process and a situation that needs your undivided attention as well. So probably teaching someone to skydive or teaching someone to do other things that are risky. Um, Ropes courses. Those are, yeah, those, 

[00:09:32] Peter: I mean, I think, I think along the lines that, that, you know, one of the things about ADD & ADHD is we have that incredible power to hyper focus. Right. Right. When we want to focus on something, we are there 100%. And I don't think that a lot of, a lot of people, without ADHD, really understand how that works. And so I think in that regard, it's probably very beneficial for us. Um, 

[00:09:50] Ashley: you know, and also the busy bodiness like the, the physical, um, Busyness is, is, uh, is key. So I think a lot of people that, that engage in that, like that come to an outdoor education experience and enjoy it, but don't want to be in it constantly. They need to think while sitting still or being still. And I, and I, I don't know how you are, but I never stop moving so it's a, it's a perfect thing for me to, to keep moving, to keep thinking. I, 

[00:10:22] Peter: I think it's the same it's same reason. Yeah. It makes perfect sense. It's the same reason that, you know, my, my parents always told me as a kid, no listening to music while you're studying, but it turns out that listening to music is actually the best possible thing. Someone like us could do. No question about.

[00:10:33] Ashley: Absolutely. And like, um, um, teaching kids. Well, my own children. Teaching kids like the multiplication tables or reading stories out loud or whatever, when they were tiny. If they, it, my, my little one was jumping around the whole time and, and I, and I would go, you know, what did I just say? And she could repeat it, back like just like word for word. But if I, you know, she just couldn't sit still to do that. So. No question. And, and I related to that, so I didn't try to get her to sit still. I went to Catholic school and I was required to sit still. So , 

[00:11:09] Peter: I went to school in the seventies and I was, yeah, in the seventies, it was sort of the same way. And lemme tell you something that didn't work really well for me either. No. And that was a public school too. 

[00:11:17] Ashley: Not a big fan of the sitting still 

[00:11:20] Peter: Ashley, how could people find out more? How can they find you? Do you have an Instagram, you have things where people could find your great, you sent me some great photos of paddle boarding and all that stuff. The places people could find this stuff?

[00:11:28] Ashley: Um, so I have a website wave paddler.com and, um, I am, I, I actually am not I'm, I'm not a public personality in the, in this, in the way that you are. I don't have something that I'm trying to convey to people. [Ashley isn’t a public figure but you can check into her courses via Web: www.wavepaddler.com and on their Facebook page here] Um, I just loved your show and I wanted to talk with you. And, uh, and, um, I don't know. I really do appreciate my ADHD!

[00:11:51] Peter: Good enough. Yeah. As you should, we're trying to change the world. Not everyone has to be a celebrity and everyone has to be, uh, famous. We could be like, you know, regular normal people, just, just doing the best they can with the tools that they've been given. Ashley Brown. Thank you so much for sticking around and coming on the show and, uh, stay on the water and keep having fun!

[00:12:07] Ashley: Thank you. You too! Come and paddle with me sometime. 

[00:12:09] Peter: Most certainly will. Guys, as always, we've been listening the fast than normal. Sorry again about the background. Apparently every loud person, who's a tourist in New York happens to be in this lounge right at this very moment. But I'm hoping that the next time we talk, I'll be back in my apartment where it's much quieter. We will see you next week. If you like what you heard, leave us a review in any of the stations, any of the places you download your podcasts. My name is Peter Shankman  @PeterShankman all the socials. And thank you for listening. We'll see you next week. ADHD is a gift not a curse.

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

André Brisson, P. Eng., is the host of The Impulsive Thinker Podcast, the podcast for the high-achieving ADHD entrepreneur. Andre owns an entrepreneurial consulting engineering company and recently started Tactical Breakthroughs where he is developing the ADHDTransformation Journey program. Diagnosed late in life with severe ADHD and mild Asperger’s(ASD), the mechanisms and systems he created to overcome his undiagnosed ADHD havehelped him succeed. He credits his undiagnosed ADHD as key to his success and a factor in restricting success. Since discovering how to turn his ADHD into a strength, people havesought him out for help with using their ADHD as a strength to drive success. André Brisson has a special ability is devouring and learning complex information and simplifying for others to solve complex problems. Like most entrepreneurs, André has started multiple companies, the two of which failed for various reasons. Learning from those failures, André now operates three very successful companies, including a self-managing entrepreneurial engineering firm specializing in niche markets that require unique training, experience, and impulsive instinct to try new things. Enjoy!

In this episode Peter and Andre discuss:  

00:45 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

00:48 - Welcome Andre Brisson!

02:40 - What is your success key for imparting complex information to the neurotypical? Ref: Ringette

04:15 - Simplifying the complex

05:06 - On the differences between informing and teaching

05:30 - When did you get diagnosed and what brought all that about?

06:02 - On inventing a “character” for yourself to be perceived as “not abnormal”.

07:00 - On then importance of being unique 

07:45 - You said you were beginning to scare your kids- can you go into details on that? Ref: emotional dysregulation

09:55 - Have you ever bought anything strictly on impulse? Tell us in the comments! ;-)

11:00 - Parenting with ADHD/mild Asperger’s prior to a diagnosis

12:20 - So when you got diagnosed, what was the treatment plan? Ref: DBT, CBT Executive Function What is Time Blindness?

13:36 - On learning your strengths and maintaining, managing and delegating what’s not best for you. Aka Peter’s “life rules”

15:15 - A bit more on delegating and staying in the lane, on the road.

16:38 - How can people find more about you? Email:  andre@andreb.ca

André Brisson

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/andre.brisson.1447/

LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrebrisson/

Twitter: @fatrol

Website: www.andreb.ca

Objective Engineering Inc.

Website: www.objectiveeng.ca

Tactical Breakthroughs

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TacticalBTs

LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/company/tactical-breakthroughs/

Twitter: @tacticalbts

Website: www.tacticalbts.com

The Impulsive Thinker Podcast

Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/impulsivethinkerpodcast

LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/company/impulsive-thinker-podcast/

Twitter: @impulsivthinker

Website: www.theimpulsivethinker.com

16:51 - Andre, thank you so much!  Ref: Faster Than Normal the book!

17:75 - Thank you. Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

19:08 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits 

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat:

[00:00:38] Hey everyone, Peter. Shankman welcome to the episode of Faster Than Normal. I'm thrilled that you're here. It is great to have you again, we have a fun guest today. I'm gonna start with his tagline because his tagline pretty much says everything ;it's simplifying your complexities, which I think is just the best description I've ever heard of someone who works with people with A D D ADHD, people who are. ADHD. I love that. It's just so clear. Andre, Brisson and I, I screwed it up. I tried my was really hard to get. That was good. Was good's the host of the Impulsive Thinker podcast, very similar to FTN. Podcast for high achieving ADHD entrepreneurs. He owns an entrepreneur consulting engineering company, and recently started another company called Tactical Breakthroughs where he's developing an ADHD transformation journey program. He was diagnosed later in life with severe ADHD and mild Asperger's and the mechanisms and systems he created much like the stuff I did to overcome his undiagnosed ADHD have helped him succeed and he credits his undiagnosed as a key to his success and a factor in restricting success as well. So that's ING to discover, um, Since discovering how to turn his ADHD into a strength people have out for help using their ADHD as well.\ You talk in your bio about how you have special ability for taking complex information and simplifying for others and first thought, when I heard that was something that happened with me. And I think my mom, like five years ago when she got a new iPhone and she was having a problem doing like four things. And so I just went over there. The their, my parents' apartment. And I'm like, here, gimme the phone done. Dun dun dun. She's like, great, but I didn't learn how to do it. Right. Right. And I realized I'm terrible at taking complex information that I understand and teaching people how to understand it. I just want to do it and get it done. That's an ADHD thing. So let's, let's start there. What is, what is your sort of success key there where you actually have the ability and the, the patience or whatever it is to take that information and simplify it down so other people can learn it as opposed to just doing it for them. 

[00:02:55] Andre: Well, the, to me, that's the key difference is I don't do it for them. I've always helped people understand, break down something complex into simple steps or layman terms so that they can act on it. And then they can think about it differently to act on it at a future time. Um, like for example, and on in Canada here, we have Ringette. It's a, it's a, it's a sport on ice for women. So basically they got a rubber ring with a spear, their stick. And I, I referee then I was in an evaluator and, uh, an officially evaluator. So what I actually did was I always asked them what's. The rule, like usually you guys say this occurred, this occurred that I call it right or not. So I go by and says, what's the rule. The rule says this. And then we break down the steps of what occurred and apply the actual rule to those steps. So I step it out for people so that they can understand it. And if you don't understand the first way, I tackle it at a different angle until they get it. And what I'm trying to teach them is stepping out the thought process to come with their own conclusions, with the facts that they know they already had. And didn't realize it. Okay. 

[00:04:04] Peter: That makes sense. Yeah, it does. It does. It's interesting. Cause that, that takes patience and, and that's one of the few things that most people with ADHD simply don't have anywhere near half of.

[00:04:15] Andre: Mm-hmm yeah. The thing is a lot of times I can simplify that complex information. So someone understands it and so that they can act on it and I can make it real. So usually I, I I'm able to connect something that's in their life or someone else's life or mine. And that's what I do a lot on the podcast is this is a snare that happened. It kind of happened to me. And then people, once you make it real people seem to click with it better. 

[00:04:39] Peter: Yeah. Makes sense. And, and yeah, I mean, that's, that's a, a, you know, my keynote speaking trait, you tell stories that people have people who relate to and all of a sudden, it's not some guy on stage talking about something foreign, it's something. Oh yeah. I get that. 

[00:04:51] Andre: Yeah. I. I had a chat today with two different people. We, I kind of, I blurted this out and I thought it was pretty smart now to think about it now, but I think there's a difference between informing to understand versus educating, to teach. So if, and for me, I was talking about advocacy as you know, I, I stopped educating people. I just tried to inform people so they can understand adult ADHD and the differences. 

[00:05:17] Peter: That makes a lot of sense. I think that also the more informed they are, the more they feel like they can have a handle on it, as opposed to. I guess educating. Yeah. Yeah. They might not necessarily get, no. That makes sense. Tell us about, um, your background. You said you were late, you were late, uh, diagnosed how late? 

[00:05:36] Andre: Uh, about four years ago when I was 44. Oh, wow. Um, and then that was a, that was all because of a life Tempest. As I've been calling had three perfect storms collide at once. Um, got into a bad business partnership. I got bored with my first company once it got successful. So I S sabatoged that. Things weren't going well at home. And my Sy symptoms overtook me and controlled me for a couple of years to the point where my kids are just looking at me scared. And I said, I gotta get help. Huh. And got the diagnosis. I went actually to get the diagnosis to prove it wasn't ADHD. Cause I thought there was something worse, wrong with me. Because that diagnosis, like it was too simple of a solution to explain my last 44 years and develop a character that I became so I can fit in and not be looked as abnormal. And then, so I got really good at playing this character. Now I'm learning how to be me and to differentiate the two, because it almost became, you know, I almost, I brainwashed myself to believe that that was the person I was or shouldn't be.

[00:06:38] Peter: No, I get that. I mean, it's, it's, you know, fitting in and not being, uh, you know, and not sort of ever really fitting in with the crowd or with, with, uh, any group in, in school, you know, and that takes a toll. I don't think, I think we're just starting to realize what kind of toll that takes on people, um, and how much, uh, that that's re you know, those early forming, forming years are really responsible for sort of right. The kinda stuff you deal with. 

[00:07:03] Andre: And then I was overlooked because I was doing well in school. Like I'm also gifted. Um, and so since you're successful and you're doing well in school, you can't have it. You're just not doing what you're supposed to. You're not trying to hard enough for, you know, stop being unique. That was my favorite word. You're too unique to be part of this and I've always fought the right to be unique. And I always thought we should all, we're all different. I understood why we were always trained to say we're everyone's alike, but we're not. We're all unique.

[00:07:35] Peter: So what, when you get, I'm curious, you mentioned something, you said, um, you said you had symptoms that were starting to, uh, that were starting to scare your kids. Ex can you go into detail on that? 

[00:07:47] Andre: Oh, emotional dysregulation times 2 million. Um, it didn't take much to spark me off. And then all I would do was I'd just be screaming at them for something silly. And when I started being cognizant of a screaming at them, for being silly, my brain was actually saying, Hey buddy, you're overreacting here. You should stop. And then I got the other part of my brain going, eh, forget it. Let's keep going. I'm already into it. Um, so when I saw those look in their eyes, it gave me a. It scared me cuz I saw myself. Um, there when I was a child and that's when I said no, no more, no more. So I went and got help. So the emotional dysregulation definitely took over, um, and enforced, uh, and then my impulsivity and the no filter uh, aspect of my brain having no filter, just my impulsivity, my ver my words would just come out and I just started not caring anymore. And that's when I said that, that, that the symptoms took over, um, impulsive bias, impulsive business partnerships, knowing that it was not going to be good. Um, and for me, I realized with time, since my diagnosis, I have a fear of being idle and when I get bored, that's when I could become dangerous. And that's when, so my physical hyperactivity, even at, as an adult kicks in, if I'm bored and then what happened was with my other company, once the startup phase was done and we're successful in maintaining success and having good gradual growth, I was bored. The, the entertainment, the interest was gone. So I created chaos. Impulsively trying this, trying that in muscle dysregulation, continuing. Um, and, and then just going on with the inattention, not caring, I had a really great point and it just escaped me. It'll come back to that's yeah.

[00:09:46] Peter: I mean, that's that happens all the time. You, you go down the route, press rabbit, home, like, wait, my original point was like five feet away from that. Yeah. Um, I think that probably, I think every episode

[00:09:55] Andre: and the impulsivity of buying stuff. You know, spending sling money, losing cash flow, all that type of stuff. That was it. 

[00:10:03] Peter: It's interesting. I've never, I, I, I, I understand that. And I get that. I I'm fortunate. I don't think it ever, I never went down that rabbit hole too much, but I've certainly made impulse. I mean, you know, mm-hmm, virtually everything I've ever bought in my life has been impulse by, I, I do you wind up doing research on the product you bought after you bought it?

[00:10:22] Andre: um, No. I usually do all the research ahead of time. So I know what I'm buying is good is just deciding to do it. Like the one was, Hey, we got a bunch of cash in the bank account. Um, I've been looking at building a server. This is quite a few years ago getting a server for the office. We got a big team, so I'm just gonna blow 40 grand right now, rather on a finance plan. Um, cuz at the same time I didn't care. Um, which was part of it, which was the interest part. Um, but the other thing too Peter. I think that I think a lot of people are getting diagnosed later in life. And for me, I never realized this about two years ago was. It really started to take control. My symptoms. When I had kids, when they disrupted my, my rhythm at home, my routine at home, that was my calm down time. When I got home, I could rejuvenate and now having being stuck, cuz you're scheduled being disrupted all the time. Cuz kids just want to be with you. They just wanna last minute try different things and no, no, I like, I just sat down, I'm ready to do a bunch of stuff and now you're disrupting me. So that's when I think it started to steamroll the effects of these symptoms. 

[00:11:35] Peter: I totally totally get that. It's it's a, having a kid. I got diagnosed before I had my daughter, but it was Def it's definitely a, um, you know, you sort of, you get this vibe where it's like, okay, uh, dinner's over, you know, I have an hour till I have to put her to bed, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna sit down and breathe and just whatever. And then it's like, dad play with me. And of course I, I will, but it took a while to sort of, uh, be able to focus entirely. Right, right. And 

[00:12:01] Andre: not oh, huge. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then you feel shitty as a, as a parent, cuz you can't give your full attention or you're always thinking, how can I get outta this? I , how can go back to what I was doing exactly. Cause I need to get that done. I gotta get it done. What's going on? Right? 

[00:12:14] Peter: No question about it. So when, so when you got diagnosed, what, what was the, uh, what was the treatment plan? Was it medication? Was it, .

[00:12:22] Andre: We, uh, tried medication, uh, I think I'm part of that 20% that doesn't work well. Um, but I think the, some of the medication I was on at that time, I needed it just to settle and almost had stopped my brain for a while so I can just catch my breath and take everything in. And then, um, Slowly got off of it. Um, but for me, the big thing is I just hyper-focused for a good year and a half on learning everything I could about ADHD interesting and simplifying it. And that's why I tell people like educating yourself the effects and then is huge. And then I was part of therapy group therapy. Now I'm just finishing up my dialectal behavioral therapy. I've done cognitive behavioral therapy, ah, even the group therapy on how to have fun. But it was a neurotypical direction, but anyways, um, a lot of talking with similar people helped. And then for me to simplify ADHD down to, I think it's its core, it's an executive functioning dysfunction and time blindness. Those two affects the, the, the, the DSM symptoms of inattention hyperactivity, impulsivity, and inattention. Um, that made a lot of sense to me. And then at the same time, shortly before my ADHD diagnosis, I got diagnosed with type two diabetes. And that's when I realized I can't get rid of it. Like I diabetes, I can't get rid of it. Nothing I can do can cure it, but I can manage it and extend my life. And that's what I saw with ADHD. .Manage the symptoms so I can work well. And I had a mantra my whole time for a long time saying your strengths can become your weaknesses. And when I put that together with my ADHD symptoms, as long as I can manage my symptoms, That's how, why I succeed as an entrepreneur and those are my strengths, but if I let them go be overutilized or underutilized and then become my strengths. And that's when I say ADHD can become a disorder, is when they're impeding your day to day.

[00:14:23] Peter: I agree. I, I think it's another way of saying, you're saying the same thing that I say a different way, which is, you know, you have to have. These life rules that you can't deviate from because you know, you, your brain works a certain way. And so you put these right pro processes into place that allow you to utilize it to your best ability. Mm-hmm . And if you, if you deviate from that, you're gonna go off the road. 

[00:14:42] Andre: Right. And, and then the other thing I discovered too, so for, I don't know, I can't do math. I'm an engineer. I need a calculator here. Um, so about a good 20 years, all I did was read all the self-help books. I've taken almost every assessment out there to identify strengths, but my therapist actually said you were doing all that to find out what was wrong with you to concentrate on what's not good enough to build on. So with my diagnosis, I took there's three good tools that I use that really identifies my talents and strengths. And. Take those. And I help people with these assessments too, to understand what's your unique strength and talent. So if we could just stay in those abilities, Then it's easy to hyperfocus and you're having a lot of fun and you're not, and don't waste your time on things you're not good at and you don't like doing that. So as an entrepreneur, it's handy, you, you got staff, you can have people, you delegate a lot of those, but I help people understand what their unique talents and strengths are, where they should be spending their time, where they can get a lot of energy and enjoyment every day, be creative and then have a team around you that just take care of the stuff you don't like.

[00:15:50] Peter: That's a hundred percent given you, have you have someone or people to do the stuff that you're terrible at? I mean, that's, you know, for 14 years now, I've had, I've had my assistant, it's a game changer. 

[00:16:00] Andre: Yep. Like we got a minimal limited brain mental brain, uh, energy, right. Every day. And I think ADHD, we just have a really good ability to effectively use it to run all day, or we have a really great efficient way to inefficiently use our mental energy and at the end of the day, it, so if we're starting to do things we don't like to do all day, then we're really, really burnt out at the end of the day. But if we can stay in that lane, man, you can do that seven days straight and not get, get tired.

[00:16:29] Peter: It's a great way to put it. It's a great way to close too. I wanna keep us to our 20 minute mark. Uh, tell us how people could find you? 

[00:16:36] Andre: Uh, you can find me at, uh, Andre, Andre, b.ca I'll take anyone's email. Um, but you can find me on LinkedIn. Our tactical bts.com is another source. 

[00:16:47] Peter: We'll put all the, all the, all your links that you gave us. We'll put 'em in the, uh, in the podcast notes. Andre, thank you so much for taking the time. This was really, really informative. We're definitely gonna have you back, uh, at some point in the near future. 

[00:16:57] Andre: Well, I appreciate you having me, Peter. And, um, like I said, like, I don't think I said this, but, uh, yet till now, um, you're Faster Than Normal book. I actually bought it five years ago, thinking it was one how I can work faster. then I bought it again, uh, and read it. And then I found the other book, but I think I really liked your aspect too, that, you know, it's not a disorder. It's our, it's a, it's a very unique ability of doing things and to not thinking as a negative. And, and make it work. And I really, a lot of stuff in there I re not reflected it hit me. I can, I understand exactly what was in there. And it was also comforting to know what I created in the past. Unknowingly. I was on the right track. So I thought it was a really good book and I do recommend it to a lot of people.

[00:17:45] Peter: Thank you, man. That's a really, really kind of you. Guys as always, Faster Than Normal, We wanna hear what you're thinking. We wanna hear of any guests you might wanna hear from,  shoot us a, a email Peter@shankman.com. We're on all the socials. You know, our, our handles by now. Thank you for listening. We will see again next week with another guest, we appreciate you and know that ADHD and all forms of neurodiversity are gifts, not curses! We'll see you next week!

[00:19:08]Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Gili Malinsky is a lead work reporter at CNBC where she covers labor and employment law, U.S. work trends, and mental health. She has contributed to outlets including The New York Times, NBC News, MTV News, the Village Voice, and many others. She’s also a playwright, having written a parody of the D.A.R.E. program called “The Drugstoppers” and, most recently, written and performed a monologue called “This is My First ADHD Support Group” at the New York Theater Festival. The monologue is loosely based on her experience getting let go and fired many times before discovering she has ADHD. She’s planning to expand it into a full-length play also touching on anxiety and depression. Gili is an Aquarius, thank you for asking. This is another good and fun one, enjoy! 

In this episode Peter and Gili discuss:  

00:45 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

00:46 - Live again from the flop house…

01:21 - Welcome Gili Malinsky!

02:22 - Welcome fellow BU Alumn! When did you get diagnosed?

03:06 - Our stories are a little similar; what was it like for you growing up?

05:01 - What if we had known we had ADHD during college?

05:28 - Would Peter change anything about his life prior to his ADHD diagnosis?

06:16 - Would Gili change anything? How about her work experiences?

08:21 - Gili’s first ADHD epiphany about work, (via therapy)

09:20 - On finding her condition actually has a name; not alone in this!

09:45 - A note on self-forgiveness

10:38 - Peter’s “leftover pizza concept”

11:44 - Once diagnosed, what changed, what were you able to do, how do you keep on track?

13:30: Ref: Books!  Smart But Stuck -Thomas E. Brown and Driven To Distraction -Edward M. Hallowell [Dr. Hallowell was Peter’s first ever guest on FTN, you can hear his interview HERE!]

13:55  Ref: Peak Mind -Amishi Jha

14:36 -How do you handle deadlines?

15:49 - Talk about Imposter Syndrome?

16:55 - How can people find more about you? 

On the Web: https://www.cnbc.com/gili-malinsky-bio/

Socials: @Malinskid on Twitter & INSTA

17:42 - Thank you. Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We’d love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

19:08 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits 

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat:

[00:00:36] Peter: Peter Shankman yo, yo, what's up everyone. Peter Shankman here from Faster Than Normal . Another episode. I am thrilled to have you with me. I am doing this again from the flop house. Reason I began started telling you about the flop house with my apartment. I had the massive water issue and, and it's finally being renovated. Uh, so I, in New York, you can't just move your stuff to another room. You actually have to move it out of your apartment. So a bunch of men came and they packed up everything I owned ever in my life, and they took it to some storage unit in Queens. I threw an air tag into a couple of boxes and I, I, I look at the air tag and remember, like, I used to have a Peloton and I used to have a bed and I used to have all this stuff. And now I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm on a couch in a one bedroom down in . Battery park city. And it's, it's a little odd. Either way life goes on as, as does Faster Than Normal!

Welcome to the stage today, Gili and I probably, I probably just pronounced that wrong, even though she told me 10 seconds ago ahead pronounce so welcome to a ADD, Malinsky who is a lead. Did I pronounce it wrong? Gili Malinsky is a lead work reporter at CNBC. All right, so we're talking about some business press today. She covers labor and employment law, US work trends and . Mental health. She contributes to outlets, including New York times, NBC news, MTV, the Village Voice, and many others. She's also a playwright. She's written the parody of the dare program, which I love because D.A.R.E did more to introduce me to drugs than ever keep me off of it. And that's called The Drugstoppers . And most recently she wrote and performed a monologue called This Is My First ADHD support group at the New York Theater Festival. I love that the monologue is based loose on her experience, getting, let, go and fired many times before discovering she had ADHD welcome to my world. She's planning to expand into a full length play. Also touching an anxiety and depression. Love that. And I love that she puts . She ends her bio with Gili's an Aquarius. Thank you for asking. welcome to FTN you're awesome. I love you already.

[00:02:19] Gili: Oh, thank you so much. Yaaaay!

[00:02:22] Peter: So I just also share with both Terriers, you went to Boston University, you graduated mm-hmm um, uh, 94 0 4, 14 years after me. Yeah. So, whatever . So you went to BU when did you get diagnosed? You get diagnosed at school or after school? After school?

[00:02:36] Gili: No, I got diagnosed when I was 33. So I got diagnosed three years ago in that 2019. Yeah. 

[00:02:41] Peter: That was about the same age as me. Um, yeah. Wow. But what was it like for you? Cause for me, everyone listened to this podcast knows I, I was. Had the social acuity of a turnip and, and, you know, barely passed by the skin of my teeth. I mean, I was at BU in the college and general studies with literally a D plus average until I got into, uh, college communications where it's like, oh, I Al I have to do is write? Okay. Here. And, you know, went to A's, but it was, it was brutal. I was on academic probation for like four years. How did you, what, what was your story like growing up? Tell us. 

[00:03:07] Gili: Sure. So I, uh, I'm the listed three grew up just that's out of Boston in a town called Newton. My brother was diagnosed with ADHD when he was pretty young. I think he was like, it must have been when he was in middle school. Um, so it was sort of always like in the background as just. Something that we knew was in the family, but I, I didn't really get too deep into it. I don't think that he and I even really talked about it until the last few years. And, um, I was always like a, you know, pretty good student was always genuinely interested in school, kind of a big nerd, really liked learning things and was always really engaged, um, by what we were doing. So. I think, and, and I learned fast, you know, even if I wasn't necessarily always paying attention, like it just, I had a good enough brain to soak up the information and I was super engaged, uh, that I just like did pretty well in school. At BU I think, I mean, definitely the stakes got higher. There was a lot more work to do. I, I don't think that, um, The concept of working harder, really computed for me. Whereas like I did pretty again, I did pretty well in high school and I think that like I did all my assignments and stuff. I mean, there were certainly things that I did very, very last minute, which, you know, our people know all about. Um, but, um, at school at when I got to BU I think like suddenly they were like really piling on the work and I, how to get myself to do like. More work to be more planned about doing the work to not leave everything to the last second, I think was really beyond me. And then I was so far, you know, so far away from my diagnosis, but it certainly wouldn't have occurred to me that something was, you know, quote unquote wrong at that point. So I think I, I was like to be honest again, because I was genuinely interested in everything and, um, you know, curious to learn, I, I. Probably like a A's, B's some C's it wasn't as good as in high school, but it was, I wasn't a terrible student. I, I could have done better though. Like had I known, had I known, um, I definitely could have done better, but, uh,

[00:04:55] Peter: I think that's the that's isn't isn't that though the, the catch phrase of anyone, with ADHD early lives I could done better. Had I known. 

[00:05:01] Gili: Yeah, totally. And I it's so interesting because like now having reported on ADHD and adults with it, like I've, I've heard of this, this thing of sort of, um, the depression that the diagnosis sets on, because there's this looking back and thinking like how much better you could have done, how much more you could have achieved off until this point? I will say I did not experience that personally, but yes. Thinking back, like I know I could have done better. 

[00:05:24] Peter: Um, you know, it's interesting. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, no, please. Yeah. What's interesting about that is I was, I was about to comment that neither have, I, I haven't either. Um, I am very much of the belief and look, maybe this is just something I've been telling myself to, to, to, to, you know, get through it. But I am of the belief that. All the crap that I had to put up with in high school, in college, almost failing out, having very few friends, being that awkward. I am a, I, I, everyone says, what would you go back and change? I wouldn't change a thing. Yeah. Cause I'm like the believe that everything that, that I got everything, I survived, everything. I learned how to do everything that brought me to this moment to is, is what got me to where I am right now. All that. I mean, it was a nightmare. I wouldn't wish some of those days coming home and just crying myself sleep from weeks on end. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but yeah, I, I believed that I wouldn't be anywhere near whatever level of success I've reached in my life had it not been for ADHD. 

[00:06:16] Gili: Totally. Yeah. That resonates so much. Uh, yeah. And which I, and that actually like brings me to, um, the sort of work world, which is really where I started getting into trouble. Um, because I also yeah. Went through a lot of hardship when I came to that. So, so yeah, I think, um, went to school for journalism, kind of always knew that that the very least I wanted to start my career as a writer there. Um, you know, don't see an end insight right now, really love being a journalist, but, um, yes, I've definitely been dabbling with other things, but, um, I started, you know, I was like freelancing for a lot of these publications. Some of them you read in my bio and then, um, started getting staff, writing gigs at, you know, major media outlets. Um, and I kept fucking up, like, so, you know, I, uh, was just getting super overwhelmed. They were giving me these like very straightforward tasks and it was just like, my brain could not handle them. It could not organize them, you know, could not help me like do them in methodical ways. It would. So much information all at once. And like, all I could do was just sit in my computer and stare at my email or look at YouTube. Like it was just, it was so, too much, too much all at once. Um, you know, I would miss a lot of deadlines and, uh, you know, I would like prefer to do the easier tasks and the harder ones that were really like the crux of the job anyway. Um, and so, um, I ended up getting let go. You know, and it's, oh, there's, you know, you get, let go for lots of reasons, but, but certainly like looking back, I know that that played into it, um, because I can see the fuckups that I made along the way, you know, this happened time and time again. And like you said, like it, you know, It's really heartbreaking. I think like we live in this very individualistic society that tells us if something like that happens, it's only your fault. Um, you know, and if it keeps happening then, like, what is the, what is the conclusion that I can come to? Like other than that I'm a fuck up myself, you know, that something is deeply broken and wrong with me. Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, it was very miserable. I was broke, um, and I felt like an idiot and I, I, I hated myself. Um, and then I think after the, I don't remember what, how many times this happened before I finally, uh, was talking to my therapist and was telling her that I have this like motivation thing at work, or like four or five months into a job. Like I just lose all motivation and it's I want the job. I always want the job, but I'm just like sitting there. Like trying to force myself, trying to, will myself to do the work. And like, everything is slower. And I I'm like going home and reading productivity hack articles and like nothing works. Um, and she was like, you know, that could be ADHD. Like, have you been tested for that? Uh, and I said, no, uh, I haven't, my brother has it. Uh, but no, I that's. That's something that it, you know, I've gotten tested for. Um, and I did. And lo and behold, I have it. 

[00:09:03] Peter: nice to put a name to everything that you've experienced 

[00:09:05] Gili: Well, that's the thing, is that like, for me having a name, like even before I was officially diagnosed just that morning when she said that I might have it, like I cried the rest of the morning because it was. Oh like, yes, exactly. This has a name. If this is what it is, it has a name. Um, I'm not crazy. There is something about me because you know, you can see the people around you are functioning differently, that they're processing information differently from you and that you just can't get yourself to work in the same way. And suddenly it was like, oh, I'm not crazy. Like, there really is something in my brain that is making it difficult for me to, to perform in the, you know, in the same way that they are. And also like maybe I can actually forgive myself. Like that was the big thing for me. I think like it was less looking back and being really upset at everything you could have done and more like, oh, like maybe I don't have to have this growing anger inside of me, this growing self hatred. And I can kind of just start to let that go.

[00:10:02] Peter: It's funny. I, I, I, I, I try to, I make light of that. Sometimes I make light of the fact that what you said specifically about how you are, uh, you know, other people do things and don't seem to have the same problems that you do, and you're watching them do these things. And I think that I've always had that and it's always been frustra, even knowing what I have and knowing that the things I do. Work. Right. Like, you know, I get up at four in the morning to exercise before my day mm-hmm so I have the Dopamine I needed, but every once in, so while I'm like, God damn it, why do I have to do that? Why do people do, why can people sleep in until six or seven, then just go to work and be on. And, you know, but I always make a joke out of it. I talk about, you know, I call it the leftover pizza concept that, that, that. Other people, they work a full day. They come home. They, I don't wanna cook 'em so they order a pizza. They eat order pizza. They have two slices. They put the rest of in the fridge. That's leftover pizza. Yeah. Never had leftover pizza in my fucking life. that's that's that's not a thing. I order a pizza. I eat the pizza. Yeah. And you know, for me, it's the same thing with alcohol, right. So I'm very aware. I quit for several years. I'm very aware of how I drank. I mm-hmm, maybe, maybe a few times a year in very specific conditions with very specific people. Um, because it's not one. Right. And so every once in a while I get a little frustrated, you know, how come they get to do this in I and I don't. Mm. Um, but then I think about it, I'm like, well, they also don't have the faster brain goodness. Right. They, you know, they haven't started and sold three companies by 40. They haven't mm-hmm , you know, done things like that. So, so, so, so ya try to find the benefit, but yeah, every once in a while, it's, it's very, very frustrating, but let's talk for a second because. Once you got diagnosed, right? Mm-hmm I I'm sure that you've been putting things into play. Same way. I did. Same way. Almost everyone does. You've been putting things into play subconsciously to allow yourself to get through, to, to work, to get on deadline and things like that. Once you got diagnosed here, you are on a high pressure job with deadlines mm-hmm um, once you got diagnosed, what changed and what were you able to do? Cuz obviously you're you let's see CNBC, they haven't fired you today and said, you're, you know, you can't do this. So tell us about the kind of things I think this will interest the audience. Tell us about the kinda things you put into play. What are your tips and tricks to make sure you don't go down the wrong road. I mean, for Christ sake, you have to do, you know, half your job is research, right? Mm-hmm half your job is there's a, how do you not wind up eight hours later on Wikipedia looking up Roman sewage canals, having nothing to do with your original story. 

[00:12:10] Gili: Wow. That was that's like Tuesday. No, um, no, totally. um, no, no, no, totally. \Um, so yeah, it's a great question. I mean, for me, I think the biggest thing was I just started learning about it immediately and like equipping myself with knowledge. And so I started reading. I read, um, there's one called smart, but stuck. Um, which I read and then, uh, driven to distraction is another one I read recently. And one thing that these things did for that these books did for me is by, is like, I, I was reading stories of other people who have this neurological disorder as well, and seeing myself in them and feeling again, like less alone and more okay. Um, and so I think. Again, that, that anger and that self hatred that I think in and of itself was a distraction kind of started to dissipate and created space for me to be able to focus better. Um, but that was the first thing is I just kind of started learning about what this is. Um, I think I kind of messed around a little bit with Adderall. Like I was like trying, I tried a little bit, but, but I think, you know, I was. The psychiatrist I said, said I have mild ADHD, you know, whatever that means. So, so I don't know if it was because the Adderall doses that I tried, like didn't really work for me or whatever it was, but I decided that I was gonna just try to make do without them, without that, you know, without medication mm-hmm . Um, but, um, yeah, I mean, so have always worked out but have started, um, but started doing it first thing in the morning. Um, I, I was, yeah, I was like, have always kind of messed around with doing it sometimes throughout the day, but that has always been part of my routine. Um, and definitely find that that's an amazing release first thing in the morning. Um, I, as of the last six months, I've also been doing some mindfulness meditation for like 12 minutes when I first wake up, I read, um, this book called peak mind, um, by, um, a researcher and professor in Miami at university of Miami. I mean, Amishi Jha and she, the whole book is about the attention system in the brain. Um, you know, and she touches on ADHD and of course, like there's no real fix for this brain, but there are, there are methods to, um, sharpen, I guess, some components of it. What meditation for me has helped with has just been, um, to have a growing awareness of where my mind is. And so maybe I can't stop it from going, you know, in a trillion directions, basically every 30 seconds. But at the very least I have more of an awareness of where it is and I. I can reel it back to what it needs to be doing. Like that's just something that, you know, that's a skill that has really helped me. 

[00:14:35] Peter: No question. What do you, um, how are, how do you handle deadlines? 

[00:14:39] Gili: It's yeah, also such a great question. Cause I have them every day. Part of it is the, you know, the, so I actually got hired at CNBC about four months after I got diagnosed. Um, and so at that point I had already sort of started the process of like learning what this isn't. How do I work with the brain that I have, um, It just worked out that I was in a really supportive system. And so my, you know, shout out to Kelly Grant, Esther Bloom, um, Jenna Goudreau , these are my editors and now Hannah Howard, they're, they're very, um, supportive. They're very open. They're very welcoming, you know, and. You know, having that external motivation is extremely helpful in, and getting me to continue to be motivated to get my work done. But I think what happened by nature too, is like the longer you do something, the better at it, you get. Right? And so I have learned, you know, by being in this environment where I'm super supported. To do my job very quickly, you know, to be a better writer to say, this is good enough, you know? Good enough is, that's what I have. So yeah. Good enough is super helpful for deadlines. Um, cause it's easy to be a perfectionist, like what you want is to give them the best, but it doesn't matter. Good enough is like that will just have to suffice. Um, yeah. I don't know. Does that answer? I can think of other things. 

[00:15:49] Peter: Yeah. Perfectly last, last question. Yeah. Talk about imposter syndrome. 

[00:15:53] Gili: No. 

Imposter syndrome, you talk about, about syndrome, huh? imposter syndrome. Um, 

[00:15:59] Peter: Hmm. Do you have it, does it affect you? How do you do? Hmm, 

[00:16:03] Gili: I mean, sure. Of course. Like I see lots of people around me, you know, at a level of success that I would love that I would love to be at. Um, but. I, you know, I have been blessed with a very big ego

[00:16:16] Peter: Haaah! Spectacular! 

[00:16:20] Gili: No, I think, um, I think to be honest with you, like, um, yeah, I, I come from a very supportive environment. My parents are, are super loving and supportive. And so I think that I do have some level of like self confidence. Um, That has really helped, like push me through, even in the moments where I was really failing. Um, I mean, I, I get jealous of people. Of course I do, but, but I somehow I think my Ambi, my ambition, um, you know, and just my, like my hunger to, to, to create, um, has just, you know, pushed me through even whatever insecurities I might have had. 

[00:16:54] Peter: Awesome. I love it. I love it. Yeah. Wow. This has been amazing. Um, how could people find you tell, tell us where you are, uh, Gil, where, where you go, what your Instagrams are, uh, whatever, your favorite type of pizza, whatever.

[00:17:07] Gili: Oh, favorite type of pizza? Uh, well, I. I mean, I like French fries better than pizza. I will just say I'm a French fries person, even more than a pizza person. So you'll 

[00:17:13] Peter: and we're done here guys. Thanks for listening. It's been a pleasure. We'll talk. 

[00:17:18] Gili: sorry. I like pizza, but French fries would like too much ketchup. That's my go to junk food. I love it. I love it. People can find me on Twitter and Instagram, um, at Molin kids. So M a L I N S K I D. That's my handle. 

[00:17:33] Peter: Yeah, a L L I I'm. I'm just putting it in for the M a L I M

[00:17:37] Gili: M a L I N. S K I D so my last name is Malinski gotcha. And my, yeah, my handles in Alinski. Yeah. I, I post like all my articles and all my stuff on this, so 

[00:17:46] Peter: very cool. Guys what a pleasure. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time. This was a great interview. Um, thank you. It gives people hope. I mean, I, I remember, um, My, you know, again, being a diagnosed I remember in college, I had a photo photojournalism professor who told me that I'd never make it. I should probably go to something boring like accounting. Said I'd never make it as a journalist. And, uh, when, when I was the first ever, uh, digital journalist to cover the democratic Republican conventions in 1996, I photocopied my press pass, uh, and sent him, sent it to him and said, kind of doing terribly .Hope you're well. That was a nice, that was a nice feeling.

[00:18:21] Gili: Um, a nice little FU. 

[00:18:22] Peter: Indeed really. You probably know the journal, the professor too. Isn't comp. Really appreciate you being here. We will have you back. Most definitely. This was a pleasure. We'll definitely have you back. 

[00:18:32] Gili: Thank you so much. This was delightful. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Peter. 

[00:18:35] Peter: Awesome stuff. Most definitely

[00:19:08]Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Today we’re catching up with Peter en route to Northern Italy where he and his girlfriend Gabriella have recently spent a few days away. We’re allowed a candid peek into their serious relationship, and of course how ADHD plays it’s part too. This is a good and fun one, enjoy! [Editors note]: It is not lost on their sound engineer that G&P are so ‘in the moment’ that the windows of their vehicle remain down during the entirety of this recording. We’d like to say thank you for excusing the wind tunnel background ;-) 

In this episode Peter and Gabriella discuss:  

00:45 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing!

01:00 - Welcome to my wonderful girlfriend Gabriella Ribeiro!

01:44 - So why don't you tell us where we are, where we're heading, and what we just survived?

02:15 - Would you say it’s more the journey or the destination?

04:00 - Why do you think my brain is doing what it’s doing since we’ve been together; the good and the bad?

05:20 - The ADHD trouble w/ wanting the grandest of the very best, always for those you love

06:00 - We hate making mistakes and we assimilate to our surroundings in funny ways..

08:00 - When you have ADHD you’re your own worst critic, but by waaay much more than most. 

09:00 - You can scroll to hear Gabriella’s episode about Iceland’s Evolving Seven Wonders here!  Ref: Gabby’s photo @theexplorateur on INSTA

10:54 - So, [jokingly], is there anything good about dating someone with ADHD?

11:31 - A little about dopamine hits

12:00 - There is no accurate nor perfect matchmaking system for those of us with ADHD

13:33 - Some honest, important information for you about relationships, dear listener.

15:04 - One of Gabriella’s greatest, if not most important moments with Peter

15:54 - One of the problems with ADHD that we’re trying really, really hard to change is…

17:00 - How not to break-up in the Frankfurt airport

17:40 - A short story on ‘using your words’

19:26 - Gabby, what advice do you have for anyone listening to this podcast who’s dating or about to date some with ADHD?

20:45 - How can people find more about you? 

On the Web: The X8 Podcast also https://www.gabbyribeiro.com/about

Socials: @theexplorateur on INSTA and Twitter and aka Explorateur Journeys on FB

Buy her book “I'm Just Saying...: Real advice for real girls in a real world. From a real Mom” on Amazon 

21:15 - Where are we going anyway? En route to Monterosso

21:16 - On trust

21:41 - Thank you! Guys, as always, we are here for you and we love the responses and the notes that we get from you so please continue to do that! Tell us who you want to hear on the podcast, we’d love to know.  Leave us a review on any of the places you get your podcasts, and if you ever need our help I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

22:27 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

—

TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: 

Hello everyone Peter Shankman and welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal. This one is interesting. I am recording this live from, um, a car, uh, in, uh, just outside Milan Italy, where I landed about feels like about three hours ago cause we. Uh, for two hours through immigration? No, it wasn't two hours felt like it, but, um, I wanted to have, I, I wanted this interview for a while. This is gonna be an interview with me and my wonderful girlfriend, Gabriella Ribeiro um, Gabby and I have been together now about three years. And, um, I don't know why I have no idea why she, why she continues to, to, to, to stay with me. Um, but she has, she has watched and, and, and in some cases, been a victim of my ADHD for the longest time and, um, I'm very fortunate that she's still here, but I thought it'd be interesting to talk to her and ask her no holds barred, sort of what it's like to, um, uh, love someone with the level of, of, of ADHD that I have. So Gabby welcome. 

[00:01:42] Gabriella: Thank you. Good to be here. 

[00:01:44] Peter: So why don't you tell us where we are and, and where we're heading and, and what we just survived? 

[00:01:49] Gabriella: Oh, we survived a minor line, but to you, it was a big deal. And I understand 

[00:01:53] Peter: it wasn't a minor line. It wasn't, it wasn't so much, that was a line. It was a line that kept, uh, we we'd be waiting in line. And then for some reason, 20 people would pass us cuz they were directed by someone else to go there. That's the part that frustrated me.

[00:02:07] Gabriella: I understand that, but we pushed our way through. So actually we're going hiking for two days in Italy and that's kind of what we do, you know, we, we go on these short trips and that I think is, is what helps ground you. To talk about ADHD? I think that's one of the core things that I notice about you is that even though we're always on the move, you feel most grounded when we are actually are en route. 

[00:02:26] Peter: I think a lot of that has to do with, well, the airplane, obviously being on a plane, you know, the, the, the place where you're most confined is really the most freeing for a lot of people. I think the, one of the things that you and I have in common is that we both enjoy the journey. The journey is the destination. As much as the destination is. You know, eight hours on a flight to, to Italy for two days of hiking. Most people think it's crazy, but it's perfect for us. It, it keeps us, uh, not only grounded, but it, it, it resets us. It resets us, resets our brain. Now that being said, travel, uh, is a huge part of your life. It's what you do for a living as well. Um, but it's also, you know, a huge part of what we do and we, how much we enjoy it and, and really, um, embrace, uh, the world as our playground. For lack of a better word. Now, there are times I think, and she's she has, she's laughing her ass off about this, but there are times when, when, um, for whatever reason, the, the, uh, travel goes awry or we wind up in certain situations. And I think one of the things that I've learned most from you is I don't have to control everything. You know, everyone I've traveled with previously, I, I was in charge, right. I was telling where we're going here, we're going this, we're doing that. And what I've learned is that when you're with someone who actually also knows what they're doing, it's okay to relinquish control. And I, I love that you're just, you're just it hysterics over here, cuz I'm sure you're thinking of many of those stories. So, so, you know, sh shared not only some of the funny stories, but also, um, sort of why you think my brain works the way it does when, when I sort of in the past have had that need to sort of take control for good or for bad.

[00:04:08] Gabriella: Well, I think you've allowed yourself, like, you know, to, to enjoy and to be happy. I think, you know, and that's, that's a huge part and I think you've allowed, you've seen what can happen when somebody, when you trust somebody, maybe that's what it is. Maybe you trust me, maybe you trust, I don't know, expertise in, in what I do for a living, that kind of thing, but that's a huge thing. And I think that, you know, maybe it's part of your ADHD, but I don't think you trust easily. I think it takes a while. It took a while maybe for us to, and I think when you start to see things unfold the right way and you actually let yourself enjoy them, even if you didn't control them, you start to see things in a different way. That's what I think. But I think also one of the things I love most about you is that you always want things to be perfect for me. And sometimes things just, it, it's not even that they will be perfect for me, but in your eyes, they're not the perfect that you envision, whether we're getting lost in an airport or you're leading me out of security and back in, cause you're insisting, you know, one way and I actually know the other, but I don't fight with you. I just kind of let you do your thing. But I, I think it's, I think that's part of, of the way that your head works is that, you know, you, you have this design in your head and you want it to be like that, but you want it to be like that for me, most importantly, which is amazing, but I think it's, um, you know, sometimes. Have to just let things be, you know, there's air perfect. 

[00:05:24] Peter: There's definitely an ADHD factor there in that we do. When you have ADHD, you want the grandest of grand, right? You want that, you know, and that, and that's one of the biggest problems is, is, you know, a random Tuesday could be the most incredible experience you've ever had when someone, you know, something shows up at your home or whatever, but it, it also. Um, it, it, you have to fight that sort of how to let other people take control sometimes .The incident she's referring to, we were in Frankfurt airport and, um, I was totally sure I knew the way to get to the lounge, uh, waiting for our connection. And it turns out I took us out of security. Then we had another 45 minute, wait to get back into security. And then I was just angry, but the irony was, I was angry at myself, right. I was angry at myself because I screwed up and I made the mistake and I hate that. Right. And, and of course I took it out on you. Um, but you know, it was one of those that was a learning moment for me. Like today we spent 45 minutes in line trying to get through immigration. And I just didn't say anything. I let you control it. I let you direct it. And we were there and eventually I wound up cursing at a cop, I think, in, in Italian, but, or Spanish, Spanish, whatever. Japanese, but that's one of the interesting things is also is that when you do travel with someone who's ADHD, they wanna immerse themselves in every aspect of where they are. Um, but their brains don't work as fast. So it is not uncommon to to see me go into a country and start speaking a completely different language than what is in the country. True.

[00:06:48] Gabriella: Uh, true. And I think it's, it's part of like, I think you wanna impress me, you know, so you've got like a. A few like core words that you use no matter where we go, like in Iceland, you'll say Ola , you know, and that's, that's perfectly fine. But I think one of the, you know, I would say, you know, you said you wanted like no holds barred. One of the most frustrating things I think is when you get something wrong and we all do right. Cuz I get things wrong all the time, but you get really mad at me when you get something wrong. And I you've said that that's an ADHD thing. I don't know. I think we, you know, it's, it's been a, I. wouldn't say a challenge, but you know, it's something I've had to understand about you. I've had to come to understand. And I think it's, it's okay. You know, we all deal with it in different ways, but I noticed that that is a recurring, recurring thing.

[00:07:33] Peter: Like I've been working on it.

[00:07:34] Gabriella: You have been, that's what I'm saying, you know, you definitely have, but I do see, you know, it's, I, I see yourself frustration and something that is, is totally okay. On my side. 

[00:07:46] Peter: One of the interesting things, I mean, there's a reason for that .When you're, when you are ADHD, you know, you do, like you said earlier, you're doing everything to be perfect. And when things aren't perfect because of something I've done, right. Because of a mistake I've made, I am my own worst critic by everyone is, but when you're heavy ADHD, you're your own worst critic by a fact of a million. Right. So you're sitting there and I'm like, okay. The one thing I had to do, I managed to screw up and I've ruined the whole, in my mind, the whole vacation's ruined,

[00:08:09] Gabriella: but it's really not.

[00:08:11] Peter: I, well, it's obviously not, but you know, in my mind, I didn't get this one thing right, now we have to wait 45 minutes to go through security again, I'm the worst. I'm terrible. She's gonna leave me. This whole thing. Right. And, and, and I think to. compensate or to make up for that. I just get angry. And, and unfortunately the person I direct the anger at is, is the person closest to me, which would be you. Um, it's obviously not, I'm obviously not angry at you for my mistake, you know, , I do remember thinking, uh, as we're waiting online to go back into security and in Frankfurt a couple years ago, I'm like, why didn't she stop me? This is totally her fault. Why didn't she stop? Totally. And, and the thing was you tried to, but then I'm like, no, I know where we're going. So you didn't really have a choice in the matter. Um, you know, and it's, I think it's also the, the, there is that aspect of wanting to impress the person that you love. Um, and when it doesn't work for whatever reason. Um, you, you, you, you, the ADHD sort of takes over, um, I'm remembering Iceland. Um, we had a chance to see the Northern lights you have understand in Iceland, they wake you up at one in the morning with like some alarm, like, like, like the Nazi's are coming to like steal the silver and, and, and you, they wake you up in the middle of the night and, and you have to rush out, get your clothes on, rush outside to see the Northern lights which prolly only last for like 12 seconds. And so I, I brought all my camera gear and everything like that, and I go outside and I, I can't get, I get nothing. I get absolutely just black images of, of black skies, nothing. Gab Pulls out our iPhone, like click and gets this, this like national geographic quality photo. I was so pissed it sucked. Tell, tell me how I handled it. 

[00:09:42] Gabriella: You didn't handle it well, but it's okay. You know, I, I know you now. But again, you, you got really mad at me. You said, oh Gab, how nice, lovely shot on your iPhone 12? Or like, something like that. I don't know what the snarky voice and that's okay. Cuz, but I think also part of maybe it's the ADHD, but I think I've been seeing you definitely change on this is that sometimes you just have to get away from the phone. You know, use the phone a lot. I, I know that that's also part of, of being with you. You're on the phone a lot. Um, a lot of, you know, looking down, I think sometimes you have to let go of things and just enjoy, you know, like we did that. We went to South Africa speaking to travel and you were so in the moment and it was wonderful. You put down the phone, you were stopping taking pictures and watching lions and things like that. Sometimes you have to not always capture it, you know? So I think some of our best moments happen totally off of social media. 

[00:10:36] Peter: What's something that... And by the way, I went out a couple hours later and tried to get their Northern lights again and totally failed again. Um, 

[00:10:44] Gabriella: oh, and it got mad at me again. Yeah. 

[00:10:46] Peter: what, you know, everyone's listening to this, like my God, why is she with him? And I, so, so that being said, tell, say, say a good thing about dating someone with ADHD. 

[00:10:54] Gabriella: You asked, I just told you, I think you are so attentive. You want the world for me, you support me. You will give me opportunities. And I think that what I love about you is that you're just so creative. And I, I grew up with a prankster dad, right? So you spend your days. . Like either pranking me or, you know, you, you won't let one single day go by without making me smile or laugh. You send me things you think of me. And I think that's, that's maybe that's part of your focus too, is I love that you are so much focused on the relationship and you want it to work. And I, I love that about you.

[00:11:31] Peter: Well, there's part of, part of ADHD is, is the constant quest for dopamine, right? And, and getting you to laugh or anyone to laugh and specifically the person you love; getting them to laugh is a dopamine hit. I'll get. dopamine and serotonin adrenaline out of that. And so, so as much as I enjoy doing it for you, cause I know you enjoy it. It's, it's a rush for me as well. Um, you know, the, the, one of the first things I remember one of the first pranks I ever played on you is I put, I put a roach on your suitcase. Yeah. Uh, at the airport. I don't know where we're going, but mal uh, Maldives, I put a, I put a roach your on your suitcase and, and I just re you know, you don't realize it's such a high, right. Watching you, no. 

[00:12:10] Gabriella: oh yeah.. It's total high. 

[00:12:11] Peter: You, you hated it. But, you know,

[00:12:12] Gabriella: I loved, I loved it actually. And I said, Peter, you make me lose my shit every day. and that is, I would say one of the main reasons why I'm with you.

[00:12:21] Peter: I mean, it's, it's not easy dating someone with ADHD without question and look, I mean, at the end of the day, your ADHD can only, only be blamed for so much. You have to take control of, of, of what you're doing. And I think I've, I've, I've been working on doing that. You know, my social acuity was never as strong to begin with, so I I've learned a lot, uh, from you and with you, but there's definitely, um, I couldn't, I don't think I could be with someone who couldn't accept a practical joke or something like that, just simply for the, the chemical high that gives me. Right. Makes me a better person. I mean, I, I prank you. I'm cracking up for the next six hours. And, and I'm the happiest person in the world, which is what you want. You wanna be with someone like that. So you definitely, you know, when you're looking to see who you're gonna date and your ADHD, think about the person who will understand, uh, the way your brain works and understand that, you know, they're not putting a roach in your bag or a rub. It was a rubber Roach, by the way, I should mention that not putting a rubber Roach in your bag to, uh, to annoy you or to bother you, but because they know if, if they. can make you\ laugh that's, that's happiness for them as well. It's, it's no different than when I was a kid and I would, I would speak out in class and make the kids laugh and, you know, get in trouble for it. I was trying to get dopamine to learn. 

[00:13:33] Gabriella: I think when you date someone with ADHD, you also have to embrace that. There's certain things that, that they need to do. And you've always told me this, I need this. I need X in order to do Y and you've always been very straight up in the, you know, and since the beginning, I need to exercise in order to feel okay to get on a plane. I need to have a half hour to myself playing a game before I can go out to dinner or, you know, whatever it is and you have structure. And I think it's important that to have a, a partner, I would say, you know, from my vantage point and what you need to, to allow that, you know, and not to make too many demands on things and just say, okay, you know, yes, I know he needs this, or yes, we're we're out, but he needs to step away from a crowd for a half an hour. That's okay. You know, and I think, um, it's understanding all of that and embracing it that helps make a relationship successful. 

[00:14:24] Peter: Think, I mean, I, I like to think there's, you know, the, the, the positives outweigh the negatives in that regard. Um, 

[00:14:31] Gabriella: Absolutely! 

[00:14:31] Peter: That, you know, we have, when we're together, we do have a blast, we have fun and, and we do support each other. I've always wanted a partner who would support me and who I could support as well. Um, you know, in life that's super couple as it were, um, that I think we are. Um, but yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't necessarily wish, uh, me on anyone. I think that know . I think that, that, you know, it takes a special person to understand someone with, with the kind of brain that, that, that faster than normal people have.

[00:15:04] Gabriella: Well, one of my greatest moments with you and I'll show I'm gonna out you. Cause it was just so beautiful is that you, we were, I think we were in London. We went to go see a musical. We went to go see Back to The Future to and something happened where I think you, you, you took my watch charger overnight and I really needed to charge my watch, but you took it and you tried to convince me that my watch was already charged, which it wasn't, but you needed your watch chargeed, so that's fine. And then you sort of got on your knees the next day and said, why are you with me? I'm I'm ridiculous. I'm I'm this, like, you were beating yourself up so much, but to me it was just like, we share things. So it was, it was okay, but you, you always are questioning. And I, I, you know, just me to you, I wish that you wouldn't because to me, I think you're perfect and we're perfect. And we, we find our quirks. I think we find the, the beauty in our quirks. I have them too. 

[00:15:54] Peter: One of the problems with ADHD is, and I'm hoping this is one of the things I'm trying to change with the podcast, with the book and everything and my activism is that, um, people with ADHD are told they're broken for years for their entire life. And it's when you come across someone who doesn't see you as broken, but sees you as, um, special and not like short but special, but special. Like, you know, as in, as in wow, this, this guy is really amazing. Um, it's hard to believe that. Right. And, and you're sure that every day you're gonna do something, you know, that is going to, they're just gonna be like, this is ridiculous. He's not special. He's a moron. What the hell am I with him for? Right. And, and despite your protestations, no, I I'm having fun with you. I'm enjoy that. It's, it's hard to, um, sometimes it's very hard to believe that, Or to allow yourself to believe that. And, and that's one of things, you know, the constant, my, my, my, my constant, why are you with me type thing, isn't like a, a ploy for sympathy or a ploy for, for a compliment. But rather it's, it's a real question, you know, it's, it's like, you know, 

[00:16:59] Gabriella: I saw that, that day. I know

[00:17:00] Peter: you've seen it many times. I mean, you've seen it, uh, you know, when we were waiting. To go back at the airport after I took us outta security, stuff like that, you know, it's like my God, why? And of course, because I'm mad at myself, cuz I know this is the moment you're totally gonna leave me. Right. 

[00:17:13] Gabriella: I Yeah, in the middle of the Frankfurt airport, 

[00:17:14] Peter: I wanted getting mad at you. Yes. Right? The, the classic favorite airport story ends with us finally getting back in and going to the lounge. And we had just gotten off a, a red eye flight to, to Europe. So we're waiting for a connection and we go to the lounge and, and they have showers and the, the woman looks at us. And she was so angry. She goes, do you want a, a suite, a shower suite for the both of you? And I go, I want my own suite . I took my own shower suite because I was so angry at myself and couldn't, and couldn't, uh, I had a, had a friend once who, who worked with, um, uh, high functioning, autistic children and like very young, like 2, 3, 4 years old. And her job was, she spent an entire year in school with them, trying to teach them to explain how they feel instead of hitting, instead of getting angry. And she tells this great story about, um, towards the end of the year, a kid was obviously upset and obviously angry at something. And she spent like five minutes saying, okay, Andrew, use your words, use your words. How do you feel? How . Are you feeling? What is the, what is the action that you're feeling right now? And he looked at her and he got really red in the face and he goes, I'm happy. right. And it's, it's literally how I feel. Sometimes it's like, I mean, like I'm so angry and I'm so happy that you're still with me. 

[00:18:19] Gabriella: That is so you, but I think one of the things you don't notice so much about yourself is how, just how funny you make everything. And I think I'm just so I'm grateful because I that's, the person I needed is that every single thing is funny, no matter what, like we always find the humor and things. And I, I, I don't, I don't think that's an ADHD thing, um, necessarily, but I think, um, you know, I think the world should know if they haven't noticed that about you already.

[00:18:45] Peter: It definitely comes from. 

[00:18:46] Gabriella: You make everything fun. 

[00:18:47] Peter: It definitely comes from our families and our, you know, I mean, my dad was, was all about using humor to deflect everything growing up and, and, and so was, I, you know, it's 

[00:18:54] Gabriella: no, but you embrace it now. It's not as much of a deflection I, that I, I love when you, like, we were just laughing in this car right now until we were crying. Cuz you know, we rolled up and we're in Italy. So you should, you know, the driver's here and you should say chow and Peter goes Ola!! Like with the, with. The biggest sense of pride. Like the barrel chested, Ola, you know, 

[00:19:11] Peter: but that's, that's classic. That's classic me, like, okay, I'm in Italy, let's for some reason speak Spanish and you know, but on the flip side, I once convinced you that I understood Japanese and got you going for like 20 minutes. Um, and you were totally convinced. I, I understood Japanese. So in the end, um, what do you want people are, who, who listen to this podcast? A lot of them are in relationships with people at ADHD and they, they they're frustrated. They don't understand, you know, why is this happening? What, what advice would you give someone who's who is either dating or about to date someone they with ADHD you're about take that plunge. What would you say to them? 

[00:19:42] Gabriella: You have to open your mind and you have to talk, like, I think one of the things that saves us is that we talk about everything good or bad. And I think you have to be willing just, just like, you know, none, none of us are perfect. Right. And we all have, you have things that you have to adapt to about me that you necessarily don't like what you deal with. Um, you know, and I think that it's, it's a question of not getting so frustrated because what you think the person is doing is on the surface this is not what you believe it to be. Like. There are so many times where I see Peter frustrated, for example, and I immediately think it's me, he's got a problem with me. He's doing something, you know, whatever. And I think it's the understanding that you have to wrap your head around. It's not always about you and in a relationship that's really important. So you have to get to the core and also figure out what it is that helps them get through the day and embrace it, allow it, um, I hate that word, but you know what I mean? It just to let it be, yeah. And not get. so worried all the time that it's, that it's a reflection on you because that person needs to do that in order to be the best them for you.

[00:20:44] Peter: Definitely. How can people find you? Cause you have actually a really interesting life apart from me, uh, even more so, even more interesting than, than just when you're with me. So how can people find you? What's your, what do you wanna get me Instagram or what.  

[[ On the Web: The X8 Podcast also https://www.gabbyribeiro.com/about

Socials: @theexplorateur on INSTA and Twitter

Buy her book “I'm Just Saying...: Real advice for real girls in a real world. From a real mom” on Amazon ]]

[00:20:54] Gabriella: Sure. I'm the @theexplorateur on Instagram um, I do a little bit of everything in tourism, but I, 

[00:20:59] Peter: we host a podcast together as well. 

[00:21:01] Gabriella: We do! Called the X8 and we'll be back in the fall with that. 

[00:21:03] Peter: So that's a travel and a podcast where we travel around the world to beautiful locations and, and, and report on them. But awesome. Gabby, thank you so much. I mean, what the hell is she, you gonna do? We're in a car at 9:30' in the morning in the middle of Italy , trying, you know, driving to where are we going? 

[00:21:15] Gabriella: uh, we're going to Monterosso 

[00:21:16] Peter: Awesome! That’s the other weird thing is that I have never been in a relationship before where I don't sometimes know, I don't know where we're going. Like there are two types people in the world. There's people who like plan everything out. And the people who wake up in the morning go, oh, what's the name of the hotel? Or, you know what airline? And, and it's, it's very strange to, to, to, to relinquish that control, but I'm starting to enjoy it. I'm starting to, I'm starting to like it. And, uh, at the end of the day, I'm I still have the, I still have the control over the airline. So that's, that's my thing. She can, Gabby can handle all the hotels.

Guys thank you for listening, Gab thank you for taking the time to do this. Um, I'm at Peter, Shankman all the socials. As you guys know, we're at faster normal, um, you can file Instagram, Twitter everywhere. If you like what you hear, uh, drop us a review. If you have guests that you think might benefit from being on the podcast, let us know. We have a big shout out to Steven Byrom, our producer, who is gonna be so angry at me because I'm just recording the string in an iPhone 20 minutes of car sound. He's gonna have to delete, uh, he's gonna, he's gonna be, he's gonna be it's he's it's not gonna be good. He's gonna need therapy from this stuff! Steven, we love you. Thank you. [Love you too man! Hope this was at least legible!]  Opening, uh, words performed by Bernie Bernie Wagenblast. Opening and closing theme composed by Steven Byrom, [he says thank you too], and we will see you guys next week with another interview. Thank you so much for listening. Stay safe. Stay well

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

 Dr. Luisa Sanz is a psychiatrist with over 25 years of experience working mainly with young people. She is immensely passionate about her work, and at the root of all she does, is the drive to help others through understanding, acceptance, compassion, respect and love. Such passion and devotion are unquestionably the results of having two brothers with schizophrenia and living its consequences from the age of 7. Being originally from Madrid, Spain, she moved to England at the age of 26 to specialize in Psychiatry and still lives there. Throughout her professional career, Dr. Sanz has actively contributed to developing services, improving the provision of care for individuals with ADHD/ASD and their families, including developing pathways to optimize diagnosis and treatment. Her special interest has always been in neurodevelopmental disorders, particularly ADHD but also ASD, and this is where she’s mainly focussed her work. During her recent career break working as a regional Clinical Director for Mental Health services in the National Health Service, Dr. Sanz founded Mind Yr Life for the purpose of eradicating the stigma around Mental Health (MH). Mind Yr Life does so by, firstly, sharing credible information on MH conditions/illnesses, secondly, having open and honest conversations about personal experiences with MH problems and, thirdly, adopting an attitude towards a) acceptance and love, b) humbleness with an open mind, and c) staying grateful and positive. Today we’re talking about her organization and the path that lead her here. Enjoy!

In this episode Peter and Luisa Sanz discuss:  

1:12 - Intro and welcome Luisa! 

2:17 - So what pushed you towards focusing your work towards ADHD, ADD, ASD?

3:20 - Talk about some of the challenges you went up against; how attitudes towards the neurodiverse and the environment there was prior to, and after your time at NHS?

5:30 - What have you noticed in terms of changing the conversation/ breaking the stigma?

7:22 - How to break stigma?

8:53 - Tell us about your organization Mind Yr Life!

10:00 - We don’t exactly have a blood test for all things neurodiverse, do we

10:50 - Dr. Sanz on her family’s experiences with mental health

11:20 - A bad attitude and ignorance are usually contagious

 12:17 - When people don’t know about mental health illnesses, or about most things for that matter they may feel fearful or threatened; and often times they try and put a person down because that makes them feel more in control, more secured. So.. there is a lot of work to be done! 

12:54: How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? 

On the Web: www.MindYrLife.com

Socials: @MindYrLifeMYL on Twitter  Facebook @mind.yr.life on INSTA and Luisa Sanz on YouTube

16:00 - Thank you Luisa! Guys, as always, we are here for you and we love the responses and the notes that we get from you so please continue to do that! Tell us who you want to hear on the podcast, we’d love to know.  Leave us a review on any of the places you get your podcasts, and if you ever need our help I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

16:30 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

—

TRANSCRIPT: 

 

[00:00:38] Peter: Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal. My name is Peter Shankman. This is the number one podcast on ADD and ADHD and I'm thrilled that you joined us today. We have an unusual guest well all of our guests are a little unusual. This one is unusual, cause she's actually a Doctor. As you know, we have people from all over the world who join us at Faster Than Normal from, from professors to rockstar actual rockstars. Remember we had the band Shinedown. We've had politicians, we've had CEOs. We've had regular ordinary folk and occasionally every once in a while, we've brought in an actual doctor and today is one of those days. 

Please welcome Dr. Luisa Sanz who is a psychiatrist with over 25 years of experience working mainly with young people, incredibly passionately. Her drive is to help others through understanding acceptance, compassion, respect, and love. She's originally from Madrid. She moved to England at the age of 26, specialized in psychiatry, still lives there throughout her professional career. She's contributed to developing services, improving the provision of care for individuals with a ADHD and ASD and their families, including developing pathways to optimize diagnosis and treatment. She spent good number of years as a regional clinical director for mental health services in the national health service, she also founded something called Mind Yr Life for the purpose of eradicating a stigma around mental health mind your life does so by sharing credible information on mental health conditions and illnesses. And by having open honest conversations about personal experiences with mental health problems, and thirdly adopting an attitude towards acceptance and love humbleness and open mind and staying grateful and positive. Well, we are grateful and positively thrilled that you joined us today. Dr. Sanz thank you!

So for taking the time. 

[00:02:10] Dr.Sanz: Oh my pleasure. Thank you to you for inviting me!

[00:02:14] Peter: So, what pushed you towards focusing on ADHD and ASD 

[00:02:20] Dr.Sanz: I believe that when I first went into specializing in psychiatry, initially I went into adult psychiatry, but I found it a little bit overwhelming because I, I have two brothers who had schizophrenia, and there was too much of the same outside and inside, you know, outside at work and inside at home.

So I decided to specialize in children and adolescent, and I thought that I could possibly intervene early life. Uh, of these, of these people and make a bigger difference. And, uh, without a question of doubt, ADHD is the most common condition in mental health altogether, but much more in children and adolescents.

So being such a common condition, I was just driven towards, um, to, you know, to, to these, these, these conditions. 

[00:03:11] Peter: Interesting. And what was the attitude before you joined, um, national, uh, health service? I'm assuming you spent a lot of time focusing on changing the environment and changing the conversation.

How was the attitude before you joined and, and, and can you cite, uh, sort of some of the challenges you went up against, uh, in changing that conversation? 

[00:03:32] Dr.Sanz: Yeah. Uh, I think Peter that, uh, for me, because, because I grew up with mental illness at home, you know, through my brothers, I think I, from, from day one, when I became a psychiatrist, I was different in a way to many of the psychiatrists.

Because I had believed mental illness from, you know, very, very close in the household. Uh, so my, my approach was different and I, from the very beginning, I always empathize the empathize, the, the, uh, you know, with patients and, and, and, and felt, felt them closer in my heart. And, uh, and you know, the conversations that I always had were, were around.

Being more compassionate and, and definitely, definitely not judging, not making assumptions and just accepting people for who they are. Um, in, in with ADHD. I, I, I always believe everything happens the, the way it's meant to. And I was meant to specialize in, in know, neurodevelopmental disorders, ADHD in particular, because, um, more than

anything ADHD. I realize that, you know, precisely we can't judge, we can't make assumptions because most of the times those are wrong and people with ADHD my daughter, Peter has ADHD, but people with ADHD are so incredibly creative, charismatic, uh, you know, gifted and, and because of, of others judging and criticizing, we tend to.

You know, hinder all those talents and, and, and beautiful, beautiful personalities. So, um, you know, you, your question was how, how have I tried to change those conversations? How have they changed? I suppose that from, from where I stand, my conversations have always been similar. The response I've had is different because for people that know me now, they know they know the type of conversations they can have with me.

[00:05:30] Peter: What have you noticed in terms of changing the conversation? I, I kind of feel sometimes, and I I'm gonna continue to do it, you know, until my last breath, but I sometimes feel like it's like emptying the ocean with a, trying to empty the ocean with a teaspoon. Right. It's it's, you know, for every person that we talk to and explain.

That, uh, different does not equal bad or that, or that, you know, this is not a disability per se. Uh, we come across schools or, or doctors, whatever who, who treat this exactly as such as a disability. And, and when you're seven years old and you're diagnosed with ADHD, uh, and you're told the first thing you're told, the first thing your parents are told is that you are less than everyone else.

That's a hard stigma to shape. 

[00:06:10] Dr.Sanz: It, it is aweful and, and the conversations have changed because when I first started, you know, working in ADHD 20 odd years ago, um, the, I had to speak to professionals, to doctors about the fact that. It was a genetic condition. It wasn't about bad parenting. It wasn't about children just being awkward and difficult and naughty.

And that those conversations were with professionals. I still occasionally have one of those conversations with a doctor, with a teacher, but not as often more often, uh, than not now people accept that it is a condition, that it is a genetic, uh, inherited, uh, condition. But generally people don't understand how it shows and how it really, uh, what it really means.

And again, this, this very wrong assumptions about, you know, when people, don't people with ADHD, don't do certain things. This is still this assumption that they've just been awkward and oppositional, whereas, you know, they don't see what really is happening. In the brain in the executive, you know, function in the, in the brain and in the neuropathways pathways of the brain.

So those conversations are still going on and will continue to go on for a very long time. But Peter, that is about stigma and that is about. You know, uh, you know, how, you know, lack of understanding because there's two aspects to the conversations. One is the lack of understanding of what it really means.

And the other is, uh, seeing it as a, as you very well defined it as a disability, as a, as a, uh, people are less for having ADHD. So it's, it is both things. 1. People don't understand the actual signs and symptoms and how it really presents. And two then is, you know, very stigmatized and is very derogatory the way it's spoken about.

[00:08:11] Peter: It's interesting because you know, other diseases, for lack of a better word, other conditions, you know, they, they don't seem. I guess they don't see it as stigmatized. Right. You know, you don't, you don't look at, um, I mean, mental health as a whole, it has always been stigmatized, but you know, you're never gonna tell someone with cancer.

Oh, just pull yourself up by your bull straps or just pay attention more. Right. And yet when the condition is unseen, uh, like ADHD or any foreign mental health, it, it, it it's always seemed like it's much easier to, um, I don't wanna say mock it, but much easier to sort of dismiss it. Right. Which is, I think very, very frustrating for millions of people.

Talk to us about, um, uh, Mind your life. I'd love to know a little bit about, uh, this, uh, organization you founded 

[00:09:01] Dr.Sanz: well it's, uh, I'm, I'm incredibly passionate about it because the, the purpose, the reason why I created my new life was precisely to eradicate the stigma. And you very well just mentioned Peter, that, um, you know, with mental health, we, at this moment in time, we can't get away.

You know, the stigma that is attached to it. And you're absolutely right with other physical illnesses. You know, people are much more understanding, supportive and, and caring with mental health, uh, is very difficult to get that genuine attitude from, from people in general. And the reason comes from the lack of, uh, uh, research and, and investigations with cancer.

You can get, you know, some, uh, radiology, uh, Investigation to prove, oh, here there's a tumor. And you can see it is in your livers in here or there, you can do some bood tests and say, yeah, you've got anemia. And this is, this is how it shows with mental health. We can't really, we don't have any x-rays any blood tests or any other physical.

Investigation that we can prove what the reason, what, the reason which leads to people, just having opinions. You know, we, um, I sometimes have to laugh when, you know, I hear conversations I'm on the, you know, on, on the cafe, whatever people are making, you know, diagnosis about anxiety, depressions, schizophrenia, even.

And I, I think, gosh, you know, most of the psychiatrists you know, that struggle to really, you know, with challenging presentations to get it right. Nevermind people in the streets, but, but we all think we know more than we do. So mind your life was founded because I, I am, you know, uh, very frustrated when I. See in general public, uh, making assumptions about people with mental health problems.

And I lived it. I, you know, I was seven years old when my eldest brother became ill with, with the first signs of his schizophrenia. And, and I, we suffered as a family, the stigma we had to move, uh, house because the neighbors were really harsh and, you know, and then, and then I was a teenager when my second brother became ill.

So even more of the same. And I, you know, I was, I was a young person thinking, gosh, you know, why, why? You know, public professional services are making life so hard for my brothers and for myself, there's no need for that. And unquestionably Peter. And this is where my heart is. We make people, we make, conditions much harder, much harder because of our, our attitude, because of the way we judge him, the way we, we assume. And, and, and I know my brother one, my eldest brother passed away last January. And, you know, I had beautiful conversations with him before he passed. And I asked him, you know, what, what he would, you know, want to tell people that have mental health problems and, you know, and his words were along the lines of, you know, we we've got each other, we understand what we go through.

We just can't take it to heart, what people say and assume about us, because that would kill us. And, and it's really sad when, when people with mental health problems live lives like that. So Mind Yr Life was created to really try and influence people's attitude towards anyone with mental health problem.

In fact, Towards anyone that is considered to be different. Um, because when we, when we don't know, we feel threatened and, and people don't know about mental health illnesses about mental conditions and, and they feel threatened because of the ignorance most times. And then they judge and they try and put them down because that makes them feel more in control, more secured.

So, you know, there's, there's, there's a lot of work to be done there about eradicating the stigma. But, you know, we, we can, you know, we bit, bit by day by day, you know, we get there, 

[00:12:54] Peter: no question about it, Dr. Sanz how can people find, uh, more about you and, and, and where can they go to get more?  

 

On the Web: www.MindYrLife.com

Socials: @MindYrLifeMYL on Twitter  Facebook @mind.yr.life on INSTA and Luisa Sanz on YouTube

[00:13:00] Dr.Sanz: I thought of the name.

And I thought, um, you know, that mind obviously is about caring and looking after, and, and mind is about mental health and, and your, your is spelled with a Y and an R because I thought it's about you. It's about us, but it's about your responsibility and every single one, taking responsibility over, over mental health, over attitude and, and, and changing.

And, and life is about, you know, precisely about why, why we live these lives, how do we live it and how do we, you know, live it in a way that is that we, we achieve happiness. Um, so mind your life spell, as I said, with the Y and R um, you know, I've got in the website, there's, I'm, I'm, I'm doing lots of interviews to people that, you know, very willingly speak openly about their experiences with, with mental health.

I like to think that I lead by example. And I, I have an interview where I speak about what my experience growing up was, you know, when with, with mental health problems at home and, and, and we do do interviews and we, you know, I I've recently, um, wrote a, a journal, which is a wellbeing guided journal to help people.

Particularly people, you know, with, it's not specific for ADHD, but people with ADHD tend to need more guidance, more support, you know, a little bit of a prompt. And, and this journal is to change behaviors. You know, that sometimes you think, oh, I wish I, I could eat more healthy or I could do more exercise or I could make my bed every morning or, you know, so, so it it's to.

It's to, uh, support people in making those changes. And the journal starts with giving lots of information about why consistency is important, how, how the brain works and how this consistency provides the, you know, the, the, the, what is needed for, for changing behaviors. So in mind your life, we have. As I said, you know, um, interviews to, uh, to learn more about what people really experience.

We have videos that I've, I've uploaded that I do them myself for, for everyone. They're not for professionals they're for everyone that want to learn a little bit more about ADHD, there are three videos on ADHD. There are some on autistic spectrum condition and that there'll be more ?___? We, we, we upload information, informa educational videos.

We've got these journal as well. And we do loads of the things, um, that we keep, you know, uploading on the website to, to try and, you know, first make sure that people with mental health problems don't feel that they are on their own because we are all on the same boat. And, and, and second to help those that really want to understand mental health conditions better and support those with mental health conditions in a, in a healthier manner.

You know, uh, we've got the information available as well. Excellent. 

[00:15:58] Peter: Well, Dr. Sounds thank you so much for taking the time. We really appreciate you coming on faster than normal. And, uh, we'll have you back again. 

[00:16:04] Dr.Sanz: Oh, I, I love that Peter. Uh, I would love that. Thank you so much for having me today. 

[00:16:10] Peter: Always guys, as always, we appreciate you listening. If you like what you heard, you could drop us a review. I know I say that every week. I really mean it this time…. —

 

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Jillian Ashley Blair Ivey (please, call her Jill) is a communications consultant, content strategist, writer, editor, voice actor, and yoga teacher based in South Philadelphia. No, she does not sleep. The thing that ties all of Jill's work together—yes, even yoga teaching—is storytelling. Jill has two degrees in creative writing that, contrary to her parents' initial reservations, she puts to use every day. She helps clients develop an authentic voice and works with them to create compelling narratives that resonate with their intended audience, and she helps her yoga students live the story their bodies tell. You can find Jill's recent essay, "The Very Real, Totally Hidden, Costs of Being an Adult With ADHD" on Medium. We’re old friends, and this is what we’re talking about today.

In this episode Peter and Jillian Ivey discuss:  

1:20 - Intro and welcome Jill! 

1:40 - Jillian’s article on Medium that inspired today’s visit

2:18 - So tell us your backstory; when did you get diagnosed and all of that?

5:30 - About early morning risers and quiet time

6:00 - Tell us about what inspired you to write this article?

9:38 - About how companies will continue to charge us and how the ’fine print’ is too often the ‘find print’. Ref: TrueBill.com  Ref: House of Lies

13:53 - So what’s our answer, what’s the solve; robots?!

14:80 - On activism

16:00 - Give us a couple of hacks that work for you which allow you to keep these kinds of things from happening?

18:30 - We honor Nancy Shankman’s time-honed “task list scratcher” technique! Ref: https://www.followupthen.com

20:30 - Jill this was awesome! How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? 

On the Web: http://www.jilletante.com also www.JillianIvey.com Socials: @JillianIvey on all the socials except TikTok here:  Twitter  INSTA  Pinterest  and Facebook]

20:52- Jillian’s consulting and new live story auditing service is at http://www.jilletante.com

21:35 - Thank you Jillian! Guys, as always, we are here for you and we love the responses and the notes that we get from you; so please continue to do that! Tell us who you want to hear on the podcast, anything at all; we’d love to know.  Leave us a review on any of the places you get your podcasts, and if you ever need our help I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

22:41 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

—

TRANSCRIPT: 

 Hello, everyone, happy day, whatever day it is, but it's probably a Wednesday. Cause that's when this podcast comes out and is actually a Wednesday here as well and I am recording live from New York city is a beautiful day out as finally. It looks like we're about to get to summer. The sun is shining. Birds are singing. People in New York are still assholes, but that's who we are. Anyway. It is great to have you on another episode of Faster Than Normal. I'm thrilled that you joined us as I always am humbled and love the fact that you’re here. 

We are being joined today by an old friend of mine, a wonderful woman named Jillian Ivey. Jill and I have known each other since God, the early aughts, I guess, as they call them probably around, mid. 2007 ish, 2006 ish, something like that, I don't know. Uh, I've known Jill; she started in PR and then she went on her own, she started writing. Uh, I, when I met her, she was working for Philios, which was a similar site of Gothamist. Um, and she does a a hundred million things I'll let her tell you about, but one of the reasons that I wanted to bring it on the podcast, other than she's a great friend and I love her, is because she went an article a couple of weeks ago on Medium. She's a very popular [does he say contributor on Medium?]. She’s a phenomenal writer. And she wrote a piece about the untold financial costs of ADHD. Jillian does have ADHD; she's one of us. And she wrote a really interesting piece that I wanted to talk about because a lot of times we don't think about other things, other than oh Adult Hyperactivity Disorder blah blah, we don't think about the hidden costs of ADHD. And so with that- welcome Jillian! 

Hi, Peter. It's so good to be here. 

So tell us your backstory before we start, tell us, uh, when were you diagnosed and what was it like as a kid and, you know, the, the usual, the usual drama? 

Sure. So I, um, I'll work backward. I was diagnosed when I was 36 years old. I'm 38 now. So this is a pretty, pretty new thing for me. And it was something that my therapist had been suggesting for a long time before she just kind of came out and said, you know, I, I think that this is something that, like you should look into more. I think that you have ADHD. And so she sent me some things and I, I looked into a lot of articles because for me, having, you know, having grown up in the 1990’s is when ADHD was the thing that everybody was talking about, with like the hyperactive boy in the class, the boy who couldn't sit still and who was talking a mile a minute and PE was the only class they ever actually enjoyed. And so that wasn't me at all. I was a really good student. I have two degrees. I have a Bachelor's degree from the University of Pennsylvania and a Master's degree from Rutgers Camden, uh, in Creative Writing, both of them. So there, there are degrees that involved a lot of time spent reading. And so I immediately just kind of wrote her off until I started to look into how ADHD is often missed in young girls, because they don't always have that hyperactive sort of behavior. And so if they don't have that behavioral marker that's associated with ADHD, or at least was in the nineties, then it was, it was missed. It was missed really, really frequently. Uh, what I had instead was hyper-focus. And so the things that I, I chose to hyper focus on were reading and writing. I was a really good student because I loved doing those things. And I've learned that as students, if you can find that thing that you're really interested in, that's how you're able to kind of see that hyper-focus work to somebody's advantage. It just happened to be for me that it was that. For some people it might be interested in dinosaurs or it might be an interest in math. I have no, no real aptitude for math at all. And I think part of it was that I started to see the numbers and my brain just shut off. And so I started, I started looking into that and I also started to look into some of the behaviors that are associated with ADHD that they don't talk about in kids very much; things like staying up really late, uh, which I've always, always been a night owl. And one of the things I like about staying up late at night is that it's very quiet. And so I feel like I can get my work done without distraction. Um, my husband is not a huge fan of that behavior. Um, but I recently.. I was talking to my mom about ADHD. And my mother is a grade school teacher. So for her, it really is still about that hyperactive boy in her classroom she sees it's just, oh, Jillian, you don't have ADHD. And I was like, mom, think about how often I was staying up late at night to work when I could have done my work earlier in the day. And you know, some of it I was doing, I was doing theater. I was doing a lot of other extracurricular activities. And sometimes I couldn't start my homework until nine or 10:00 PM, but sometimes I just didn't want to. And my mother is also a night owl. And when I pointed that out to her, the line just went silent.. and she goes, oh, well, you've given me a lot to think about. I’l; t alk to you later. The only time I've ever talked to her about. 

You make a really good point though, because I think that, that there's something to be said for people they need to see there's something to be said for silence. You know, there's something to be said for, um, for being able to shut out the rest of the world. Um, for me, that's early mornings and I was a night owl;  growing up college. I mean, I, I was, I don't, I didn't get it. If I didn't have a class, I didn't get out of bed till noon. Right. And then, but I was up to like three, four every, every night. And, um, you know, or in the morning or watching the sun come up and, and it wasn't until my late twenties, when I discovered exercise that I discovered getting up early and now, you know, but the same thing is a few hours. I'll get up at 3:34 AM and get on the bike for a couple hours. Um, you know, and no one's there and it's my time. Right. It's just our time down here, type thing. And so, so that's a wonderful, a wonderful feeling. 

Um, so I want, wanna, I want to touch this article because I really was blown away by this. You, you, you, you put into words, everything that I think so many of us think of, but we don't really think about it until it's as need be. So, so you talked about you, you called the article the, I don't remember the actual title, but the subhead was, “another collections agency called today”. [The Very Real, Totally Hidden, Costs of Being an Adult With ADHD

Or: Whoops—I got a call from collections again!] Okay. Great. So tell us about the article and then tell us sort of what prompted you to write it. I'm assuming, you know, obviously wrote it from personal experience, so talk a little bit about it.

Um, so I, uh, I, I started it actually as a Twitter thread. I, um, to make a long story short, I do go into this in the piece. I used to see a therapist through a company called Thrive Works, um, and Thriveworks is a huge company. They have offices all over the place. They have a bunch of therapists, and I went to see them. I already had my therapist who I love, but I had a very specific issue that I needed to work on. And my therapist said, this is probably something you should go to somebody else for. So for awhile, I had two therapists, um, which was, was really fun. Um, but I needed somebody who took insurance and a friend of mine saw a therapist from Thriveworks, and she said, because they're so big, most of their therapists do take insurance. And so I found somebody who not only was local to Philadelphia because at the time it was pre COVID. And so I wanted to see somebody in person, um, but they took insurance and they had an availability the following week. So over the course of this. I was in distress. There was a lot going on in my life that led me to the point where I needed this therapist. And while I was being onboarded, while I was setting this appointment up, I'm sure they told me that, you know, part of being a member of Thriveworks, you have to pay a monthly fee to be a member. I don't know what the membership fee actually gets you. I still haven't quite figured that out, but whatever. So this would have been February, 2019, where I started, uh, started this process, started seeing this therapist by March of 2021. She had left the practice. And so I, I don't know. I just kinda forgot that I had this monthly fee because I'm not somebody who ever goes and looks at my checking account, which I know I probably, I look at the balance, but I don't look at the individual transactions. Um, and then when I was doing like getting ready to do my taxes at the beginning of this year, I saw that I was still charging, being charged with ThriveRx. And I thought, oh, you know, I must’ve just been on an annual plan where since she left in March and my, I started seeing her in February, I must just be on the hook for the next year. And in March, I get an email saying your subscription has been canceled. I'm like, great. Not going to worry about it. Uh, checking email is also not a thing I'm particularly great at, and I'm sure that that's a, that's a common behavior that a lot of us have. Um, so what I missed was the email that came up it was in my spam folder saying, oops, sorry, we didn't mean to cancel your account. You're still getting charged. And so when I saw that. Oh, I wasn't actually, uh, like this, wasn't an annual commitment that I'd made. This was a month to month commitment. So I contacted, Thriveworks, and I said, Hey, I'm going to need you to refund everything that I've paid since my therapist left the practice. And they said, oh no, we don't do that. It's on you to end your subscription when your therapist leaves the practice. And I added up what I had been paying since she left. And then I started to add up all of the other things that I have had to pay because I forgotten to cancel something, or because I've missed a deadline and then I've had to pay a late fee. And so it started as a Twitter thread and then I was like 11 tweets in it. Isn't oh, no, probably a out to move this over to a longer form where I can really start to explore it. 

It is amazing, right? When you, you sit down and you think so, it's so funny, you, you, you, I feel very seen, heh, based on what you just said. Um, you know, I, I, I have a website, I have several websites that are hosted and. Recently, about a year ago or so I took my two biggest ones and I moved over to a separate host site that monitors them privately. And, um, it's much better, you know, if something goes down, I don't have to worry about it, they fix it. But, you know, I still have a bunch of others that they keep on this, on this other hosting platform. And I just randomly one day got an invoice and I think it was waiting for a flight, so nothing to do. So I clicked on the link and read the.. I was still being charged for the two big websites, even though they haven’t been hosting my accounts over a year and you know, you get the notification that says, okay, your website has been officially taken off this platform. I think there's something about the ADHD in us that wants to assume it's going to be handled for us. Right. Because if I have to think about it and then deal with it. That's a whole process. Right. So, so yeah, I was paying like an extra $40 a month for like past year for absolutely nothing. And I can't tell you how many, how many times I've done that. I mean, you know, I think for, for us sites, like, uh, is it Truebill or whatever those are are, are, are godsends, but they're also scary as hell. It was like God, when they go through our, for their first run, this is going to be really depressing. 

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think that it's great that there are platforms like truebill and other services that allow you. I mean, I have, you know, there are, there are planners that are catered to people with ADHD. There are all sorts of reminders that you can set on your phone or your calendar to pop up an alert, like things that pop up once a month to, to remind me, you know, I have a subscription and if I don't want to get billed, I need to make sure that I tell them not to, not to charge me this month. Um, so, so that's all great, but at the same time with technology, there's really no reason that a lot of these companies can't do this stuff themselves. Like when my therapist left the practice. It would have been so easy for Thriveworks to go through their CRM and say, you know, pull all of the people who have seen this therapist in the last year and contact them and say, as you know, this therapist is leaving the practice. Exactly. Exactly. It's not the..

Company's bank on people like us, like on everyone, right, forgetting to do that. 

Exactly. “It’s not a bug, it’s a ‘feature’”!  [fml]

There’s a great episode of, uh, I think the first episode of a TV show on HBO or Showtime called House of Lies with Don Cheadle, Kristen Bell. Um, they talk about how they're going to, uh, uh, they're going to re revamp a big banks image. Uh, you know, that during the housing crisis, all these people lost their homes and the banks made billions they're going to revamp their image by. Uh, offering lone amnesty and that the CEO was like, absolutely not. And they said, no, you don't understand you, you, your normal DQ, like 90% of the people won't qualify. 8% of screw up in the application. Half a 4% will die. You know, you'll give out a couple hundred grand back, you know, and you accept the award of the year because they it's exactly the case. They don't expect us to follow through. And normally 910 times when we won’t. 

Yeah, I, um, I have the, I live in, I live in Philadelphia and, uh, the state of Pennsylvania has a website where you can go and see if you have any unclaimed funds. So this is like refunds from a doctor's office, that for whatever reason, they didn't prescribe it to your account. And so I have for, now that you're saying this is probably two or three years, had money sitting, waiting for me with the State of Pennsylvania. And the reason that I have not actually been able to claim it is because it involves printing out a form AND GETTING it NOTARIZED!?! And yes, getting this and then putting it in the Mail. And so I have to go through all of these extra steps and like, that's, I have several things that just don't happen because they have, I have to leave my house. I can't do it online. I have, um, I have some, I overpaid, uh, on medical expenses last year. Like I hit my out-of-pocket max. And so I have to submit forms to the insurance company, which can only be submitted by mail. There is, you can't scan it and send it to somebody. I have a friend who works with this insurance agency in the Social Media department. And I was like, what, what the hell is this? I know, I know it's just, it is the way that they operate. And so there is, there's a lot of money, not only that I've paid, um, because of this, but I think there's actually a lot of money that I'm owed, uh, that I haven't pursued because of this. 

So what's the answer. I mean, what do we, you know, obviously I, you know, Hey Siri, remind me of this, or, Hey Siri, do this is, you know, Hey Alexa, do this, that is great. But there has to be, I mean, look, we're not gonna, we're not, the companies are going to certainly not going to do it. Right. So at the end of the day, what's the answer.

Well, you say the companies aren't going to do it, but I think we forget how important a role activism is in the disability community and then neurodivergent community. So I think that part of this is going to be calling your Representatives and talking about the unethical practices of the people who are charging these fees, knowing that people who are neurodivergent people who have ADHD, people who have Autism are not able to meet the requirements in order to take advantage of the system. This system is calculated against these populations in the same way that there are systems that are calculated against Women and against People of Color against people in the Queer community. And so the more that we can raise visibility here, the more we can say, no, this is a real issue a nd it affects a lot, a lot of people. And I think since, you know, the DSM has been revised and the way that we see Autism has really expanded in the way that we see ADHD has really been expanded. It affects a lot more people than you realize. And to create that visibility so that the system works for us. I think we shouldn't, we shouldn't forget that we at least for now, live in a society where we have representatives met as part of their job.

That's true. And we do have that at least for another few months. Um, but no, I, I think, and I think it's interesting because, you know, I, I keynoted, uh, disability, the first ever disability confrence  for Adobe, and it was a global conference, uh, you know, 10,000 people online, all from all around the world. And the one thing that I got the most feedback on was the fact that. You know, upwards of 15 to 25% of the workforce is going to be neurodivergent in the next 10 to 15 years. That's a massive number! Right. And if you're a company and you're not A. hiring for that, but B. understanding your audience.. you're going to lose.

Right.

That's very, very true. I wanna be respectful of your time. Give us a couple of hacks that work for you that allow you to, you know, obviously, obviously it's not, uh, not in terms of, uh, paying, paying your therapist bill, but give us other hacks that work for you and tell us what you've learned and the kinds of things that you do to prevent these things from happening. 

So to prevent these things specifically. Um, as I said, I have an alert that goes off on my phone the first of every month I have, I'm a yoga teacher when I'm not doing the writing and, and also consulting on, on a content strategy for folks. But, um, I have a subscription to a service called Fabletics it's Kate Hudson's active wear line, and you get invoiced every, uh, I think the fifth of every month, so that you get your monthly credits to get more clothes. I have more yoga clothes than I could possibly need. And so right now I have an alert that comes up on my phone the first of every month. And I see it when I wake up in the morning and before I even get out of bed, I go to Fabletics and I tell it to skip this month. And so I think that those alerts, as long as we see them, as long as they come through at a time where we're likely to see them are really helpful. Now, if the first of the month is on a Saturday or a Sunday, and I'm sleeping in a little bit, it's not necessarily going to be at the top of my phone. So it's not a perfect system. But it does help. Um, I think other things that I've done are, you know, I, uh, I can't always rely on.. my husband is probably undiagnosed ADHD. He's got a lot of the same behaviors that I do. So I can't always rely on him to remind me to do some of these things, but what I can do is put something on our shared calendar that says, you know.. Six o'clock tonight we're going to get this thing. We're going to be making dinner. And it's going to say, talk about whatever this, this bill is that we need to figure out or talk about our taxes. Um, so, so it's really helpful just to have those, those things pop up on our phone. Now, that being said, I know that a lot of folks who are neurodivergent, who have ADHD turn off a lot of those alerts on their phones. 

Right? 

So one of the other systems that I used to do, I, I now I work all over my house, so this doesn't work as well for me anymore but when I always sat at my desk at the same place at my desk, every day, I put post-it notes on my computer screen of things that I needed to do. It's just around. The edge of the computer screen. And there's, there's something really satisfying about the tactility of- when you finish a task, taking that note off of your screen, tearing it up and throwing it away. Because it's more than just like clicking a box on your computer. There's actually something there that like, yes, I can do this. I can, I can get this done and I can actually feel getting it done, which a lot of us don't have when we work fully digitally.

It's funny. My, I used to make fun of my mother when I was growing up,  because she had a black book and in her book were all of her contacts, but she also had a calendar and every year she’d replace it with a new calendar. And she'd write down all these tasks that were do on the day. And she, when she was done, she would spend upwards of 30 seconds crossing it out. And, you know, like, like crossing it out, like, like you're, you're the, uh, woman in Hamlet trying to get the blood out of.. 

That’s Macbeth..

Ah Macbeth! That's what I meant. And I knew if anyone, if anyone would correct me on that'd be you!  But you know, like ripping the page as she crossed it out. And I always asked, Mom, why are you crossing so angrily?! She’s like I'm not angry, I just did it! It's done! LOL And I totally get it now! 

Um, you know, I, I praise these guys all the time. I have no connection to them other than the fact that they've saved my life many times www.FollowUpThen.com. Um, I I'm sure I've told you about before Jill. Follow up then.com is this free service where you create an account and then you send an email to any time period. I followed them,,,?So 10 minutes had followed them to come four hours about, then it comes Thursday, March 28th, 2023. It followed that and it will simply send it back, whatever you wrote in that email to you. And so, you know, on, uh, for your thing where you have to do your Fabletics. Um, I do the same thing with certain things that have to be paid or have to be looked at, you know, um, January 5th, February 5th, March, I send one email to all 12 months and every, every fifth of the month I get an email, Hey, check your subscription or whatever it is. So yeah, those kinds of things are, are, are game changers for people like us. 

Absolutely. Um, I think, I think while the system doesn't work for us, it's up to us to figure out what we're able to do to kind of hack the system. So, so, you know, apps like that, uh, offerings like that, just make it a little bit easier to exist in the world that is not really always made for us.

This was awesome. Jill, how can people find you?

[http://www.jilletante.com also www.JillianIvey.com and on the @JillianIvey on all the socials except TikTok Twitter  INSTA  Pinterest  and Facebook]

Uh, so a couple of ways I'm on social media, all, all platforms, except for tick-tock because I'm old and I still don't understand it, uh, at a, at Jillian, Jillian with a J and IVs IBE, Y um, I'm also, you can find me at Jillianivey.com. Most of my work is archived there so you can find the link to the Medium article that way. And I also, in my consulting work and I am at Jill Aton, like dilettantes. Spelled with two L's and one T because two L's and two T's looked weird. Uh, so Dillatant dot com. And I'm actually about to launch I an offering where I'm doing live story audits with people. So going through their website, kind of helping them to figure out whether there's story works live in the minute I send them a recording. And I find that this actually works really well with my ADHD, because I don't have to remember to do any followup work after I send them the recording. And that is that is it. 

That's awesome. I, you know, that’s funny. I never, for the life of me knew how to pronounce that until just now, haa! I love it. I love it. 

Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. I really appreciate it. This was a great interview. We'd love to hear what you think. And we'd love to know if you know, more people like Jill, who would want to be on our podcast. We are always looking for guests. We record a couple of times a month. We'd do like six or eight interviews in a day. So if you have someone that you know, or maybe yourself, shoot me a note, Peter@shankman.com. And we would love to hear your story and perhaps get it on the air. We get about 40 to 50,000 downloads an episode. So people definitely, definitely will hear your story. And, um, we'd love to help share that. ADHD is a gift, not a curse. 

Jill, thank you so much, guys. Thank you so much for listening. We will see you next week. Big shout out to my producer, Steven Byrom, the best producer in the world! [Thank you Peter!! :-)] Uh, opening theme recorded and composed by him and closing theme recorded by him. And The Voice you hear at the beginning of every episode is none other than Bernie Wagenblast the same man who says, at Newark airport. “The next stop is terminal C. Airlines at terminal C include United, United Express and United International departures.” We'll see you next week. Thank you so much for listening!  Stay safe, be well.

—

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Miles Mendoza is an author and freelance writer living in New York City. His writing often draws upon experiences as a veteran and various other emergency service roles he’s occupied. His poetic essay, “Escape From Harlem,” was published in The Void magazine’s December 2020 edition. Another, “Exotic Fruit,” was featured in the AT THE PITH art exhibit at the Nook Gallery in Oakland, California. Most recently, the author collaborated with artist and Professor Tiffany Lin to develop a satirical news story highlighting workers' rights issues (www.tlinart.com/fight-santorg). In September of 2021, Miles published his first book. "Speaking in Midnight Tongues and Other Symptoms of Neon Fever" is a collection of poetry, essays, and short stories that address themes of addiction, trauma, and creativity. When not freelancing, the author maintains a poetry and fiction website: www.MilesWrites.Blog. His work can also be found on his Instagram account: @mileswrites. Today he’s sharing about hyper-vigilance, a different- maybe more observant side/speed of the ADHD brain, and advice on how your anxiety can kind of direct you towards being more efficient, if not productive. Enjoy!

 

In this episode Peter and Miles discuss:  

 

1:17 - Intro and welcome Miles Mendoza! Ref: “Escape From Harlem”

3:20 - What’s it like to be a freelance writer and be working on everything all the time & have ADHD?

5:49 - Ref: Ten Ways to be Happier When You Live/Love Someone Diagnosed With ADHD

6:09 - When were you diagnosed?

8:00 - upon joining the military

9:20 - What did you learn in the Marine Corps that you still apply to your daily routines?

11:00 - Ref: FTN episode with Jack Walston

12:25 - on processing everything at the same time

12:33 - on processing speeds

14:05 - on hyper vigilance

15:10 - about the effectiveness of flash cards

16:24 - Tell us more about how you processed the Will Smith slap?

17:42 - How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? Web: [17:42 - How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? Web: www.MilesWrites.Blog  Socials: @mileswrites on INSTA 

18:21 - Thank you Miles! Guys, as always, we are here for you and we love the responses and the notes that we get from you; so please continue to do that! Tell us who you want to hear on the podcast, anything at all; we’d love to know.  Leave us a review on any of the places you get your podcasts, and if you ever need our help I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

18:55 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

—

TRANSCRIPT:

Oh, hellooooo-Ladies and gentlemen my name is Peter Shankman and this is Faster Than Normal. Welcome to another episode! I am your host. I said that already. I am exhausted. I flew in last night from Montana. Boy are my arms tired. It was a three-hour delay on the flight. Um, I got home around 2:00 AM. I had to be up at six to get my kid to school. Um, oh. And by the way, I'm in the middle of an 120 hour water fast. So I am about 60 hours in and I am just exhausted. So don't come near me. I will kill you. But that being said, we have a phenomenal guest. 

Y’know.. there are some sites out there on the internet that are just amazing in terms of knowledge and things you can learn. And then there are sites that are just cesspools of filth and depravity. And I was on the cesspool side of the coin a few a month ago or so, and I was on Reddit and I was reading about it. It was right around the time of the Chris Rock Will Smith slap. And I was reading an article about it or a story about it, and I read it and I saw this quote that came from a guy and ran into his quote, said, dude, I have ADHD. So maybe this is just a me thing, but do you know how many of my day-to-day interactions slash reactions are autopiloted while my brain is working on a delay to process what was actually said. So.. what that told me, first of all, the brothers from another mother type thing, but what was amazing about that is that there really are two types of ADHD. There's the ADHD that says, oh my God, someone's not even halfway through their sentence, but I know I have to respond. I know what they're gonna say. And let me just respond right now and lemme interrupt. And then there's the other half. That says I'm just going to watch this because I, my brain has to catch. Everything is moving so fast and my brain moves so fast. But in this situation, I'm going to catch up and make sure I know all the facts. That is what our guest was talking about on Reddit. His name is Miles Mendoza and Miles is an author and a freelance writer. He's living in New York city. We met on Reddit. He lives like 20 blocks for me and his writing draws upon experiences and various other emergency service roles he's occupied. His poetic essay Escape from Harlem was published in The Void magazines’ December 2020 edition. And another exotic fruit was featured at the, At the Pith Art exhibit at The Nook gallery in Oakland, California. He's from the Bay area. He lives in New York city and in September of 2021, he published his first book Speaking in Midnight Tongues and Other Symptoms of Neon Fever: Poetry & Essays, which is a collection of poetry, essays, and short stories that address themes. Trauma and creativity; pretty much sounds ADHD to me. Every single theme in that, in that, uh, book of short stories is something that we've all dealt with as ADHD and that whole brain thing- we're in talk about it. Miles. Welcome. Glad to finally have you on the podcast, buddy. 

Nice to meet you.Thank you for having me. 

So talk let's let's go back. So you live in New York city. You're married. Um, you're a journalist slash a freelance writer slash author. Let's talk for starters about what it's like to be freelance and to be working on any given thing at any given time when you have ADHD. 

Well in many ways, it's great. You, um, you're working on a bunch of different things. Your brain is stimulated on a bunch of different subjects all the time. I wouldn't be able to do this 10 years ago though, because I had to develop a bunch of different skills that I.. like to overcompensate for what would have been a very messy approach to business. So I, I, I work off of, I think I have multiple to do lists every single day and in a lot of those to do lists, uh, have to do with like, Take my dog out for the second time today, you need to go up three times. So I need to put that on the list. You need to go up three times. So every single, I didn't hear everything from like haircut to have lunch is on this to-do list. And if there's not enough yellow check marks on that list at the end of the day, I know I did a bad job. Uh, so, but then there's the great thing of like, I get to research different subjects which is. Essentially, I've tried to commodify what I did with my days anyways. So I I'm the kind of person who falls into, um, an obsession on a new subject every other day, I'll fall down rabbit holes. So I try to like, to really kind of take that momentum and just try to commodify it. And, uh, for my own business, it has worked to a certain degree. Um, I do get myself into a lot of situations where I am, uh, I over-packed myself at work because I feel best when I don't have any idle hands, idle parents for at least myself, as some of the ADHD tends to lead to trouble. And, uh, and that's what I was kind of writing about. Um, I wrote a, uh, an essay about, um, what it's like to live with a wife who does not have ADHD in any way, in fact, a very, she's a great student. She's about to finish her, um, nurse anesthesiology master's program. And when she picks up a book, that's what she's going to read until it's time to put it down. Whereas I have hundreds of books I've read most of them, but I have not finished..most of them, you know, that's, that's just kind of how my brain works. 

It's funny. You mentioned that I wrote, uh, one of them when I was going through my divorce success at 16, one of the most read articles I published on medium was, um, Ten Ways to be Happier When You Live/Love Someone Diagnosed With ADHD. You know, it was, it was the whole premise that, you know, there'll be times when I have this great experience and all I want to do is share it with the person I love and I'll call and they'll be in a meeting, but they're not answering their phones so obviously it's because they know that I'm calling they don't want to talk to me and they hate me and in my mind I've already broken up gotten divorced moved on with my life um, you know, and then they call me back and they're like, you know, th’f*ck's wrong with you? So yeah, I totally, I totally get that. But. When were you diagnosed?

You know, interesting story on that. I, uh, I came, I come from that generation where like, it seemed like every other kid in the class was diagnosed, uh, right about right about when I was in middle school. So what was that; in the late nineties, early two thousands. And I was already. I clearly had it, but I don't think it was just coming into the national conversation um, so, you know, I, I did well on tests. I was a nice enough kid with my family. I just didn't do my homework. I’d either forget about it or just could not get up to the point of performing it. And as I got older, that became more and more of an issue. And so I think that somewhere around fifth or sixth grade, I went to a doctor. And that was a pediatrician, but the problem was that I was? able to keep up with  conversation with him. He put me down in like the lower range. He was like, if he has ADHD that he's like, I, I can give you the prescription, um, on the diagnosis, but he's on the lower range. And so I remember getting Ritalin when I was a child and it, it, I, it didn't react well with me. I, I don't know if you've ever seen the episode of the King of The Hill where Bobby gets a Ritalin. 

Oh my God favorite show! 

Yeah, exactly. So like, it was pretty much that I was like, I was just sitting, staring at a wall. My parents freaked out. They were like, no, get him off of this. Uh, so I never really thought about it too much.I kind of knew that I had, it was in the back of my head. Um, but it really didn't become an issue for me because, uh, my approach to school was all over the place, but, uh, it didn't become an issue until I impulsively joined the Marine Corps. And then suddenly having your ducks in order is very, very important. And yeah. And there were a lot of moments where to this day, I think back to bootcamp, I, I'm not a religious guy per se, but, uh, I almost turned to Jesus in that sense, because there were these moments where. I did not know, like you have to have your things, like, they will tell you, you need, you know, here's the 10 things on the gear list and you have to have them when you had asked for. And I was like, cool, I've got my 10 things. And then there would just be nine things and like, okay, now w where is it? And like, I need this right now. And then something would just appear. So I, I, I remember at one point I was like, there is a supernatural force looking out for me. I now realize it was probably some dude next to me going, I got to help this idiot. But, yeah, so I thought 

I want to stop. I let’s stop and talk about that for a minute. 

Of course. 

So you joined the military, [[microphone rustles across entire frequency spectrum]] and I have said multiple times on this podcast that if I was smarter about what was actually going on in my brain when I was younger, because ADHD didn't exist when I was a kid. Right. You’re disturbing the class did.. and I have a feeling that if I had been smarter about this and been more knowledgeable, I might've done the same thing because today my life is entirely based on rituals calendars alarms, set ups, do this, then do this. Then, you know, when COVID hit and I had, I would give a speech on zoom and then have the three days of travel that I'd normally be traveling busy to do nothing it was, it was hard, right? The calendar had to be full. So it seems me like Tell me what you learned. I'm fascinated by this. Tell me what you learned in the military that you were able to then apply, especially in the Marines, they were able to apply to life everyday. I mean, is that where you got the concept of the to-do list and the calendars and all that?

Yeah, exactly. So what the military does is it creates like a huge amount of consequences for when you screw up. So suddenly you're kind of always in a fight or flight reflex, and I'm not just talking, I'm not talking about combat or anything. I'm just talking about day-to-day life about living in the fleet is you need to, you need to be places 15, sometimes 30, 45m early. And so you start building buffers into your life and you start realizing like, okay, I don't want to spend my weekend on duty, or I don't want to get my ass chewed out by a staff Sergeant or something like that. So you start to like build in all these things, so you can live a decent life and not everything comes out of the military with you. You do relax a bit. I certainly relaxed quite a bit, but, um, And you do keep these certain things. Like I have like internal timers that tell me like, Hey, you're getting close to that meeting per se for like for today, I knew I had to be at a certain place to do a certain thing. And I started having like internal alarm clocks go off before and it's like, you should be ready 15 minutes beforehand, because what if, you know, you get mugged on the way back to your apartment and you're, you know, now you're late for the worst thing possible is to be late. And you start to worry about how you appear to the world around you because that perception and military.. is often “perception is reality”. 

Right? Wow. Okay. Interesting. We do a lot of the same things and, and it, it, it, it.

Back in 2001, a former Navy seal who's since passed away a man named Jack Walston, I've had him on the podcast. Very, very, influential man in my life, he started a course, uh, for civilians, uh, where he'd come to.. he was based in Houston and he'd bring it to New York for two weeks or two weeks, four times a year where you'd basically just go and play in central park from 4:00 AM to 7:00 AM and get your ass kicked. Right. It was basically bootcamp. And, you know, for someone who you know, up until the early two thousands, you know, only ran by pressing X on a joystick, um, you know, and to the store for cigarettes, like wanting to do this and actually enjoying it and needing it in my life and doing it like 15 times was massive for me. And, you know, they're totally unexpected, but I get it now. And then the more I talked to the people like you, the more, I totally understand it. You, these rituals, these things that, you know, I'm a free spirited, are actually what ground you and what allow you to be creative because you're not worried about, okay, I'm going to miss this meeting or that miss this appointment or go down this rabbit hole.

Uh, absolutely. It's uh, to me, I, I think we live in a pretty anxious society and I I'm sure part of that internally. Uh, but I it's like weaponizing your anxiety. Like let that anxiety kind of direct you towards being productive, or at least being efficient. 

Very cool. So let's talk for a second about sort of that slower brain.  Do you think that the concept of ADHD is faster than normal? It's faster brain? The, the, the, the premise that we are always thinking 20 steps ahead and, and that's what we need to control because otherwise, you know, we're going to crash into a tree, um. In your, from what I'm hearing from you, you're actually sitting and processing the reason you might have a, you mentioned something that, where you said, uh, you know, there'll be times when when you know, you've been called out or you're about to get into a fight and you don't, you don't even flinch and everyone thinks that oh wow, he's so, he's so brave, but no, you just haven't really processed what's been going on yet.

Yeah. So for me, it is still an issue of like doing too many things too fast. A lot of times when I'm having a conversation, I, I have like, uh, I've been diagnosed with hyper vigilance, so I'm paying attention to everything in the room. I’m listening to conversations next to me. I'm watching people walk into the room. Uh, and, and I know that that sometimes comes with ADHD. You don't necessarily have to have like, Uh, trauma necessarily to spark this, but it is, it's an over-processing, it's like more Ram than, than hard drive. It's operating with one and not the other. So it's, I am, I am paying attention, but it is possible that I may have rehearsed inter-reaction already. So like, I mean, you know, I'm going to go meet with a friend for lunch. Uh, I know how long it's been since I met that friend. I know the questions that I should ask. I am then applying like I am, I'm now deploying that social plan or that social plan while interacting with them.  And then as I'm doing that, I am also getting dragged, congratulating myself for deploying that correctly and not listening to the answers. It's not that I don't want to; it’s not that I don't value what they have to say; it's just that my brain is sometimes applying more focus on some background things that are going on as well. 

Well, I think that happens in, in terms of, you know, we're constantly, when you're able to see a lot of what you're doing also is figuring out what the next question you ask is what the next, where the conversation is going. Um, and I've noticed that happens to me when I meet someone for the first time and I ask them to name right as they're about, tell me the name I’ve already moved on to think about what I'm gonna say next and I will never remember the name. Ever.

Absolutely. Uh, the names, uh, spouses names. If I, I I'm sorry. A lot of my friends is, uh, third spouses.. I probably will never truly know their names. I will always be asking other friends or my wife, what is that person's, uh, girlfriend or boyfriend's name, you know, or before we even get there. 

That's funny. You're very fortunate to have a wife who's a, who’s got your back like that. 

Oh, she's incredibly tolerant for someone who just learns.. that's what I've noticed is that, um, a lot of ADH deers are, I don't know how we describe ourselves. Um, we, we absorb information. We can interact with it very intensely and then five years later, have no idea how to do that again, like our brain dumping abilities are quite impressive almost. Uh, and, and. 

No. It's funny, many times I remember in school, one of the things that was was, you know, I hated tests and things like that, but when I had one, I would sit down.. once I discovered flashcards, right  my life changed. I'd sit down. I've learned it. I get tested on it, I’d pass and then puke it up. It's gone, right? 

Right? It's like, it's like your brain does a deep fragmenting and it just like just tosses it and there might be shreds of it there, and you can fall back on it. But for me, I, it, it meant that I needed for a career to rely on internal skills that were actual, like baseline talents that I would always kno. For me, that was always writing so I that's what I, what I ended up going to ultimately, I also have, had I had a very adventurous personality. So for a long time emergency services for EMS, all of that, I loved it because I was just excited to be out there on the street and see what was going on right now that I'm, I'm calming down a little bit and I want a little bit of a safer career choice it’s I had to go back again to the thing that never left me. It was my ability to write, edit and whatnot, but, uh, learning actual new skills and then just holding onto them for years at a time. Never really been my forte. 

Interesting. Tell us about more about the slowing brain. You, you can use Will Smith as an example. You're watching it happen in real time and yet  you weren't processing. I, I think in all fairness, millions of us watching in real time didn't process it. 

Uh yeah.. It's one of those things where it's like, I, I identified mostly because like in real life, when, when events like that happen, they don't, they don't make sense. And they don't make narrative sense. If you're making a movie, the first thing you're going to do is show Will Smith, like getting angry at the joke. Right. But in real life, yeah. He's going to laugh with you. Uh, people react to things illogically sometimes. And I just identified with that for me. When I, when my wife's telling me a story, I sometimes I I'm trying to process and keep in mind everything that's going on. And it makes what her words coming out of her mouth it's a little like watching a washout VHS tape. And it's you kind of, you know it because you've seen the, you've seen that video so many times, but you're not getting grasping all the details in the weight of everything that's going on. So you kind of have to say either stop or say that to me again, or in my case, I often am able to replay back events. So I'm just operating on like a 15 to 22nd delay before I fully understand what's going on. 

Very, very interesting. Tell us, uh, I know you have a website that I mentioned earlier. Tell us again, tell us where people can find you things like that. 

[17:42 - How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? Web: https://www.nontradaccelerator.com/academic-coaching Socials: @mileswrites on INSTA www.tlinart.com/fight-santorg ] 

In September of 2021, Miles published his first book. "Speaking in Midnight Tongues and Other Symptoms of Neon Fever" is a collection of poetry, essays, and short stories that address themes of addiction, trauma, and creativity. When not freelancing, the author maintains a poetry and fiction website: www.MilesWrites.Blog.]

Oh, uh, Myles writes DOB blog is where I post, uh, I try to curate the best of my material at the mind, poetic essays, um, poetry, uh, some fiction I write in a broad spectrum. And then, uh, you can also find me at miles writes on. Instagram, uh, which is where I usually, that's more of my, my rough draft contents are, you'll hear me scream about some political opinions here or there, but for the most part, you can find all my best material on mileswrites dot blog right. 

Awesome. Very cool. Well Miles, thank you so much for taking the time! 

Guys. You've listened to Miles, man. I really appreciate you coming in and being so honest and you know, that's, I guess that's the one, my one, you get one shot a year where you find something worthwhile on Reddit. So I guess that was it, um, for this year. So I appreciate you taking the time, man. Thank you so much.

Of course, thank you. 

Guys, listening to Faster Than Normal as always you know the drill. If you like what you hear then leave us a review. If you want more info or advanced a dog just jumped in my lap oh hello Waffle. And we would love to know more, feel free to share uh what you're thinking. We will see you next week with a brand new interview. Thank you for listening. Stay safe, stay well.

—

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at petershankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Camille Roney is a certified Academic Life Coach whose work has appeared in the New York Journal, Quizlet, MD Femme, Motivate MD, and more. She empowers students to earn competitive grades while actually ENJOYING the process and overcoming obstacles that may be impacting how they show up in their academics. You can learn more about how Academic Coaching can transform your high school or college student at her site: https://www.nontradaccelerator.com/academic-coaching. Today she’s sharing ways you can identify within yourself, via the use of a data, how to identify your, individual, best learning techniques! Enjoy!

In this episode Peter and Camille discuss:  

0:57 - Intro and welcome Camille Roney!

1:28 - How do you get kids to enjoy it no matter the subject?! (i.e. Math) 

4:18 - Ref: Yerkes-Dodson law

5:15 - On being in the zone of focus/flow

5:30 - Q&A for Peter about how he gets into and stays in the zone/flow

6:52 - On teaching students to be bored

8:26 - Tell me about first time college students and their study habits?

10:10 - Success leaves clues. These clues may present as follows…

11:38 - Give us some quick tips. i.e. I have a test tomorrow and I haven’t started studying, what can I do?

14:13 - How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? Web: https://www.nontradaccelerator.com/academic-coaching Socials: @RoneyCamille on Twitter @thelearningmom on INSTA and @thelearningmomnet on Facebook

14:26 - Thank you Camille! Guys, as always, we are here for you and we love the responses and the notes that we get from you; so please continue to do that! Tell us who you want to hear on the podcast, anything at all; we’d love to know.  Leave us a review on any of the places you get your podcasts, and if you ever need our help I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

15:23 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

TRANSCRIPT: 

Hey everyone, how are you doing? My name is Peter Shankman, you are listening to Faster Than Normal the internet's best, number one, most listened to podcast on ADD & ADHD and neurodiversity and it's because of you. I'm glad you're here. Thank you for that. Makes me happy. 

We’re talking to Camille Roney today. Camille is a certified academic life coach whose works appeared in New York journal Quizlet MD Femme, Motivate MD, and more. Here's the thing she empowers students to be to earn competitive grades while actually enjoying the process and overcoming obstacles that may be impacting how they show up in their academics. I’ll repeat that: she teaches kids to enjoy learning. All right. So Camille, you're obviously lying, um, welcome to Faster Than Normal. It's good to have you! 

Thank you for having me Peter!

So, so you teach kids to enjoy learning the problem with ADHD is that when you enjoy something. You get dopamine from it. If you're interested in it, you get dopamine from it when you explore it, if you don't enjoy it, you don't get domaine from it. So when, you know, if it's English class or something that I loved great, all the dopamine in the world, math or science, not so much. So you're telling me that you figured out a way to get kids to enjoy no matter what the subject let's talk about that.

Absolutely. Yeah. I'd love to, I'd love to dive in. Um, so in my experience, There's a few different ways that we can approach it. One is how we're approaching studies in general and the expectations that we have around it. So many students. In fact, I would say the majority of us humans come to school with the expectation that we're about to be bored out of our minds.

 

And therefore we have, we create the evidence to support that. And a lot of us are just thrown content at regardless of whether it has anything to do with anything that we as individuals care about at all. So what I like to do is invite students to consider what's important to them. What are their personal values, their interests, what are they into? And then there's a few different approaches that we can back; that gives us a bit of a compass with how to approach the studies. Do we need to integrate aspects of those into school? Um, what, you know, relating those values back into the, what the content that they're learning. So if they, um, decide that let's say peace wellbeing, global, um, like global warming global wellbeing. If we're approaching that with say social studies, we can say, okay, how was this really? How did this stuff that happened way back? How could that have impact a global warmingm, or how could that have impacted global wellbeing? How did this impact the wellbeing of others- that kind of invites us to get creative with the content and play with it because some content you really, really have to get creative with- how am I going to make this interesting? And if you, if you assume, let's say a student sits down for physics class, and the first thing that runs through their mind is I suck at physics. It's going to be awful. Rightfully so. But if you can say, if you're thinking throughout the course, um, man, I can't like I’m mesmerizing these formulas so that when I sit at the dinner table tonight with my family, I just get to brag about it and man, I will look so smart and like that we'll feel good. That's their motivation. That's totally fine. That's great. Also, um, you're you, are you familiar with the The Yerkes-Dodson Law of Performance? 

No. Tell us.

Okay. Beautiful. Beautiful. Imagine that this charge, if you will, on the, this graph on the X axis, you have stimulation. So low to high stimulation; and on the Y axis, you have performance. If this bell curve shape and on the left-hand side, we've got like, so you're under-stimulated therefore your performance is low. You're bored. You're not having fun in the middle the peak stimulation level you've got focus. Engaged energized, genuinely having a good time. And then on the far end, you've got anxious, stressed, restless. I like to consider both internal stimulation and external stimulation and considering how the classroom itself plays into that curve. I also like to invite students to consider. And I'm curious what your answer to this here is Peter; what's an example where it's a case where it's really easy for you to get into flow. Like you just, you don't even realize how much time has gone by, you're just your blinders are on your in the zone and it's just, it's amazing. You're completely in flow. 

When I’m on an airplane.

Gorgeous. Tell me more. 

So when I get on the airplane, I'm flying to Asia. I have 14 hours with nothing but my laptop in front of me and I started working. Next thing we've touched down 14 hours later and I, I mean, I wrote my last two books entirely on airplanes. 

Okay, cool. Can you give me another example with a completely different example of when you're in flow?

Umm… looking at the dog park and there were other dogs playing. I can, I can go to work for a while and let the dogs just have fun and get lost. 

Gorgeous. Okay. So what are, what are some of the common themes between those scenarios?

Headphones. Allowing myself to focus on the task at hand. No distractions.

Beautiful. How can you apply that to your school? Work life, something that you don't want to do? 

I would assume to get into the same zone when I'm doing something I don't want to do. But of course, the problem is, is that the problem is, is that you get bored with it. And then you wind up looking for distractions.

Is there something wrong with being distracted? 

No, there's nothing wrong being distracted. Unless it leads you down a rabbit hole that then prevents you from doing the work in the first place. 

Yeah, exactly. One of the most incredible skills that I wish we were taught in school that took me  just way too long to do, to figure out, is I teach my students how to be bored. We're often taught that boredom is like this awful negative experience. When in reality, it's just one of many human experiences that we have and there's nothing wrong with it, reframing it from negative to a positive. And what I see in so many of my students is that where again, when you approach school with the expectation that it's going to be boring. Yes- we create that. If we come with the expectation that it could be fun; that shifts things like a bit. We can actually create different behaviors so that we are enjoying the experience more. So let's say, um, to sit down to study a student suddenly starts bringing their favorite drink every time, some type of like fizzy soda or something that they genuinely enjoy, or like this pen that just like it glides so smoothly on the page that you think that you're going to die. Like, it’s fun. Like enjoy the experience. It doesn't have to be awful for us. Like honestly, if you want to. If coming to school and like a Hawaiian shirt and a wearing a lei and sunglasses, if that helps you like have more fun in school, that's a win, right? 

No, that makes sense. I mean, when, you know, when you think about it, does it make sense in terms of how you.. It's essentially what you're saying. It's a different way of looking at things.

 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Tell me about the college student, who's in college for the first time and is on their own for the first time. And you know, whether they're neurodiverse or not, and all of a sudden they don't have a parent watching over them and then no one watching over them and they never, they never really learned that study to learn to do it. Now they're stuck in a thing where it's like, oh, no one can tell you where and when I can go out; no, one's going to stop me and they get kicked out, right?

Well, let me first say, there's nothing wrong with going out. I encouraged students to enjoy the college, the university experience, like what a magical time in someone's life. But when else are you going to be surrounded by so much diversity of experiences and people? Fantastic. What I like to suggest is. sorry, let me, let me take a step back. What I often see is people falling into this trap of, oh shoot. The expectation suddenly skyrocketed on my performance levels in academia, but I haven't, we haven't like we haven't had a class called how to read since like the third grade, yet the expectations of our reading skills are completely different since then. So what I, the tracks that I often see students in is they look around I what everybody else is doing and they just do that. So they're copying word for word what's on the lecture slides at the cost of not paying attention to the lecture. They're apt to suddenly sit still in a class for three hours at a time, which is a huge shock for a lot of students transitioning from high school. They've got all these things on their plate. And frankly, it's too much for a lot of people when you just try and do things the way everyone else is doing. What I like to say is success leaves clues. So let's look at the data, look at your information completely objectively, something that is so fantastic about academia is you do some work and you get a result. You get a specific number grade. So what you can do is take track, like keep track of as much data as you, as you feel comfortable with such as, um, how much sleep did I get before a test? Was I hungry while I was studying? What methods did I use? How many, how long did it take me to read this content that I read every word, consider the data and then look at the results of those yields because, but students often, like what I often say to my students, if you've mastered a very specific way of doing things. And you now have, are starting to collect the data of what type of result that yields. whether you like it or not is up to you. But this is a fantastic time to experiment and try new things and see what works and what doesn’t. And the key isn't to do everything. The key is to do what you know, works best. Finish all the rest. You don't have to, like, you can get through your entire degree without taking a single note. If that doesn't work for you, stop taking notes. You're wasting your time. Use it in another method for studying and really comprehending information. I think give your brain a break! 

Makes sense. It does make a lot of sense. Tell me about, um, give us a couple of quick tips. Um, other than the ones that you've given us are great. A couple of quick tips. I have a test tomorrow, um, I haven’t started studying, what can I do? I'm not saying that's what they should do every time, but. 

Right. This is such a good question! Okay. What is your favorite- to go from short-term memory to long-term memory for this specific type of content, because you should be studying, you know, how you study for Calculus, for example, should it probably looks very different from how you would study an English class. So that's my first question. How you go from a short-term memory to long-term retention. Just do that. If you get time to do anything else, that's gravy. Fantastic. So, um, I like, I get really into things like techniques, like speed reading or different memorization techniques. The high yield thing is to, sorry. My recommendation for you is strictly focused on the high yield content. Master that. Use your course syllabus or, um, a professor teachers outline on what's going to be covered on the test, how that, how the content is going to be tested matters, like how you study for a multiple choice problem. Uh, exam, it looks different than how you would study for an essay exam. So again, that's a matter of data collection. What works for you for that specific type of content and work with that. Um, my, if I had to give you just one, one quick takeaway from this is: As you're reading your textbook, never go beyond a single paragraph without asking yourself. How would Mr. Jones test me on this content? 

That’s really good!!

And you would think that that takes you longer to get through the content, but because we're strictly focusing on the high yield content, you're not reading every word in the whole, you know, in the assigned reading and because you're really giving yourself that time to get curious and play around with the content. Oh okay. I can see this being a multiple choice question. What would some of the potential answers be? And like really getting curious and creative with the content. Chances are, you don't have to review at all before the test. You've taken the time to really master it the first time, bringing it from short-term memory, to long-term retention, applying it based on how it's going to be questioned, know quizzed or examined on. And then you move on. 

Excellent. I love it. Very cool. Um, Camille, thank you so much. How can people find you? [[ Web: https://www.nontradaccelerator.com/academic-coaching Socials: @RoneyCamille on Twitter @thelearningmom on INSTA and @thelearningmomnet on Facebook ]]You can find me on Instagram. I'm at the learning mom or on my website, a non-trad accelerator.com. 

Awesome. We will definitely link to all that. We will have you back. There's a lot of fun. Camille Roney, thank you so much for taking the time! I really appreciate it. 

Uh, guys, as always Faster Than Normal, we try to bring a new and interesting different ways to learn and think about, ADD and ADHD and all forms of neurodiversity, as well as fun stuff. I know recently we've had some interviews about. We interviewed someone who, um, works with drug addiction, we talked to an accountant to is helping people with ADHD   in their math. If you know anyone who you think might be a good interview for us, let us know. We would love to have them on the podcast. You can find me at, at Peter Shankman. You can find past episodes at FasterThanNormal.com or anywhere that you get your podcasts, including-“Alexa”. I have to say her name very softly, because if I say her name..And if I say it three times Jeff Bezos appears in my apartment and tries to sell me something. So thank you guys for listening. We will see you next week. Camille, thank you for being here. ADHD is a gift, not a curse as is all neurodiversity, stay safe and stay well. —

Guys you've been listening to Faster Than Normal. We love when people come to us and say, Hey, I would like to be on the podcast, or when they have a great idea for a great story. And they have a great story themselves. If you're that person who knows someone who has let us know, we're always trying to find new people. We have a plethora!! of new episodes that we've recorded that are in the can that are coming up. The next three months are already filled but if you have someone to let us know, we'll record you and get you on the podcast as well. And you can find me at Peter@shankman.com  The podcast is FasterThanNormal.com on iTunes on Stitcher, Google play anywhere you get your podcasts. Thank you so much for listening and remember that ADHD and all neurodiversity is a gift, not a curse. And we will see you next week with a brand new episode. Thank you so much for listening and we'll talk to you soon!

—

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at petershankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Kristin Wilcox has a Ph.D. in Pharmacology from the University of Mississippi Medical Center and has spent over 20 years in academia as a behavioral pharmacologist studying drug abuse behavior and ADHD medications at Emory University and Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.  She has authored several manuscripts published in peer reviewed scientific journals and presented her research at international scientific meetings.  Her book “Andrew’s Awesome Adventures with His ADHD Brain” shares her son’s experiences with inattentive-type ADHD, and her insights on parenting an ADHD son.  Dr. Wilcox serves on the executive board of the Inattentive ADHD Coalition, hoping to increase awareness and understanding of the inattentive subtype of ADHD in children and adults.  She lives in Maryland with her husband and two sons. Enjoy!

In this episode Peter and Kristin discuss:  

1:00 - Intro and welcome Kristin Wilcox!

1:40 - Cocaine for research whaaahht??

3:00 - Talk about inattentive-type ADHD?

4:45 - On adrenaline junkies. Ref Type T ADHD

6:50 - Is there a nature versus nurture component there? Ref: OneWheel & Multi-Access Trainer

9:00 - Tell us about the book!

10:30 - There was not much research in existence on inattentive ADHD in boys

10:52 - Does it occur in girls as well?

11:14 - What specifically are you studying in terms of drug abuse and behavior & things like that? Tell us a little more about your background?

12:15 - Is the book available everywhere?

14:15 - How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? @ADHDAdventures on Facebook And you get get the book from Here and here-> on Amazon!

14:25 - Thank you Kristin! Guys, as always, we are here for you and we love the responses and the notes that we get from you; so please continue to do that! Tell us who you want to hear on the podcast, anything at all; we’d love to know.  Leave us a review on any of the places you get your podcasts, and if you ever need our help I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

15:15 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

—

TRANSCRIPT: 

—

Yo, yo, Hey everyone. It is Peter Shankman. It is Faster Than Normal! It is another interview. It is a great Wednesday. Uh, it's a great Thursday, Thursday? Oh my God the weeks are rolling into one. My daughter goes on a field trip for three days overnight and I no longer know what day it is. Ridiculous. Okay. Welcome. My name is Peter. Shankman. Said that already. We're talking to Kristin Wilcox today. She's a doctor. She's a PhD in pharmacology from the University of Mississippi Medical Center has spent over 20 years in academia as behavioral pharmacologist studying drug abuse, behavior and ADHD medications at Emory University and John Hopkins University School of Medicine. In other words, she's much smarter than any of us. It is great to have you here Kristin. Then she has written a book called Andrew's Awesome Adventures with his ADHD Brain, where she shares her son's experiences with inattentive type ADHD and her insights on parenting an ADHD son. She's on the executive board of the inattentive ADHD coalition of an increasing awareness and understanding of yet attentive subtype of ADHD in children, adults. She lives in Maryland where there has been two sons, Kristen. Hi, welcome. 

Hi Peter. How are you today? 

I am great. Thank you for taking the time to join us. Um, it's funny. I remember probably in 2005, I dated a woman briefly who was doing her second PhD at Rutgers, I believe, and was also studying drug abuse. And the thing I found so amazing was that when you are studying drug abuse in a university setting an academic setting, I guess, for a PhD or better, or whatever, you basically can call the government and they deliver you drugs like illegal drugs, like they delivered through cocaine to her or to her lab, I guess. And I was just shocked by that because my first question was, so can you.. and she immediately shut me down and said, absolutely not! But it was an interesting question. 

They do actually, um, the, uh, the cocaine that we used to use in our, uh, experiments with. Cocaine that was confiscated off the street and then purified by the DEA and that's how we got our cocaine for our research. 

Unbelievable. The DEA was purifying their own cocaine. That is brilliant. I love it. That's awesome. All right. I just need to throw that out there. 

I remember she sent it to me. She goes, yeah, this stuff is like a hundred percent. Yeah, you wouldn't want to use it or something like that.

That's crazy. Unreal. Well welcome. I'm glad, glad you're here. So tell us about, um, you know, we, we think of ADHD as both, um, you know, going down the rabbit hole of hyper-focus and also, you know; Hey, I'm bored. Give me some dopamine.  Talk about inattentive ADHD?

Um, well,  I think the most important thing is that, uh, there's very minimal hyperactivity and impulsivity. So a lot of the times when people think about ADHD and especially ADHD in a boy, they think about a boy who's bouncing off the walls, who can't sit still in class, who's constantly fidgeting. They don't really pay attention to the boy that maybe, you know, kind of dreamy and forgetting to turn in his assignments and has a desk that’s stuffed with undone worksheets. So that's probably the biggest thing to know about inattentive ADHD. They do also have the, uh, like, you know, the inattention and the forgetfulness and the disorganization, which also occurs with, um, the commonly thought of combined type, which does have the hyperactivity and the impulsivity, um, you know, and these kids are also, uh, they're very smart. Um, inattention has nothing to do with intelligence. Um, they're very creative. They're outside the box thinkers. They're great at problem solving. Um, they love risk-taking and adventure. They're adrenaline junkies. 

Yeah, that totally makes sense. 

Yes, my son actually wanted to skydive when he graduated from high school.

Well, tell him to give me a call and we'll make that happen. 

Haha! I’m glad somebody will go with him because it's not me. 

So that's interesting. I remember there was a, there was a study. I wish I could remember the guy's name, but it was, there was a TV show, probably the learning channel or something 15, 20 years ago, when I first heard it, got to me and it was talking about someone who came up with this concept of type T. T positive and T negative, where T is this adrenaline junkie right? And empty, positive T is someone who gets their adrenaline in positive ways based on upbringing. You know, they be able to do public speaking, whatever. And T negative is those who find it in negative ways, you know, drug addiction, um, um, you know, crime, things like that. And so, so in ADHD are they are adrenaline junkies. 

Uh, they are adrenaline junkies, but it can also go both ways they can. Um, you know, like you mentioned before regulating dopamine, they can regulate dopamine by jumping out of an airplane, but they can also regulate dopamine by taking drugs or driving fast. Um, so it's kind of a, it's a double-edged sword. Like the, the risk taking is, um, you know, can have complete benefits and be fabulous and, you know, kids with ADHD are not afraid to do something and jump right in and they, they live life. Um, you know, cause they don't think about it. We'll just think about the concept and we'll deal with the consequences later. There's no thinking about them. Um, but you know, they, they do get into problems with drug abuse and crime and driving fast cause that's also stimulating domain. So, um, you know, it, it, it is kind of a plus and a minus of having an iteration of inattentive ADHD. 

But is there, I mean, is there, you know, I think that, that for a lot of us, you know, especially when we're not diagnosed, it's just okay: Sit down. Right? And we don't realize that the things were drawn to come from this concept of…? but for me, for instance, you know, I never got into, I didn't get into drugs at least not in high school or as kid, um, you know, the worst thing I ever did was smoke. Right. And this was the eighties where smoking was good for you. But, um, you know, it's the premise that it is there. Is there a nature versus nurture component in there? Where, if you know, you, you, you, you look for positive things, or look for things to give you that dopamine, that aren't necessarily negative things.(?) 

Um, yeah, I, I, I would probably agree with that. Um, my son, as, as well, uh, hasn't gotten into the drugs in high school, doesn't go to parties and, and drank, um, you know, he finds his stimulation in other ways. Um, you know, like, right. He has a Onewheel, I don't know if you know what a one wheel is. 

Yeah, of course. 

So, so he just got a one. 

Yeah. For those who don't know what's next generation Segway with just one wheel on it and and, and you..

He just got on that thing and just took off, you know, he, he went to space camp when he was in seventh grade and they put you in this thing that, um, you know, turns you all around 

A Multi-Access Trainer. I know exactly what it is. I had a very bad experience with…

And he was the first in line to do it, you know? So he's, he's seeking his im, adrenaline out in self-regulating and positive ways. He's not self-regulating with, with drugs and alcohol. Um, is that partially because of the environment that he's in? Uh, probably he's, you know, we have an open dialogue about things like that and, um, you know, so we're kind of steering him away from that type of behavior, but, you know, um, if he wasn't in that type of environment, maybe if my husband and I were constantly gone; working all the time and stuff like that, and he was left on his own, you know, he might try to, you know, get into some of that to help self-regulate. 

And I think that, that, you know, that's one of the interesting things is that you look at, you look at, um, uh, prisons, you know, it's a 65 to 70% of um, incarcerated males are undiagnosed ADHD. And so it does come down to that question, you know, I mean, for me, you know, my, my being undiagnosed by parents just assumed, okay, he's hyper, let them run around so I’d take my bike after school everyday, and I'd ride around for hours and hours and hours. Right. And then, you know, I don't know if they ever noticed when I came back, I was much calmer. but obviously it was absolutely helpful. Okay. Tell us about the book!

Ok! So, um, so the book is in two parts. The first part of the book is my son's story with his inattentive ADHD and the ADHD elephant that lives in his brain. Um, and the second part of the book My experiences raising an ADHD son and I kind of, um, put, you know, some of the science behind ADHD and how that relates to my son's behaviors. And, um, the reason I wrote the book is because there is virtually no information out there on inattentive ADHD and boy s. So, um, when my son was diagnosed, fortunately, he was diagnosed in third grade, which is young for inattentive ADHD. Most of the time, these kids are diagnosed after nine years old, sometimes not until their teens, because, you know, it's what I like to call the silent ADHD, if they're not disruptive and, you know, creating chaos so they're not really noticed. Um, and we were fortunate. He had a teacher in second grade who recognized his symptoms because her son at the time was in high school and he had inattentive ADHD, so we were fortunate that he had that teacher. Um, and at the time is when I was working at, um, Hopkins on the ADHD project. And I was talking to a psychiatrist who was consulting on our research project. And he actually said, there's nothing out there on boys with inattentive ADHD. And of course I went home and started to look and do some research and he was right. So, you know, the purpose is just kind of to increase awareness that this occurs in boys. Um, you know, get it out there. 

Uh, it does occur in girls as well? 

It does occur in girls and adults and it's, um, most often discussed in girls and more recently in adults. 

Okay. And, and obviously it's, it's being discussed more in adults because adults are taking their kids to get diagnosed and they say, huh, it sounds like me.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

Interesting. What, um, talk for a second about, uh, about your, about your background. What are you, um, what specifically are you studying in terms of drug abuse and behavior and things like that?

Um, well, when my son was diagnosed, I stopped working to focus on him. So I haven't done research in quite awhile. Um, but the majority of my research was looking for therapeutics for cocaine abuse and finding cocaine taking behavior. Um, and it was preclinical studies. Um, and then when I worked at Johns Hopkins, Uh, the ADHD study was looking at long-term effects of ADHD medications, because at the time there were no studies on it; long-term effects of ADHD medication. So we looked at, um, physical features. Um, we looked at cognitive functioning. Um, so that was, uh, was the nature of that study. 

Interesting. That's fascinating stuff. Um, is the book available everywhere? 

Uh, the book is available on Amazon. Um, and it's available on the, uh, publishers website, um, MSI Press, LLC.

Cool. Did you self publish it? 

I did not. Okay, cool. Excellent. A lot of our, a lot of people are, um, I've talked to a handful of people who've written ADHD books down and they're all self published. Um, just like, yeah, whatever helps people whatever gets it out there. I'm a fan of..

No, yeah, I was very excited. It was picked up by a publisher. I didn't, I didn't have high hopes. And I thought that if it wells, it's never really published, hopefully it made me a better mother to my son because it helped me to understand his brain and to work with him instead of working against him, because he doesn't think the way I think.

Yep. Now it's it is, it is, you know, I think that's one of the biggest things that the parents need to understand. I mean, I remember growing up, my parents just didn't understand the difference, you know, why, and then they still treated me a hundred percent wonderfully, you know, and, and I had a great relationship with them and I still do, but they weren't the way I was and it was just a, it was a very, they just never got it. They never really got it. 

Yeah. Now I asked my son before I, um, but while I was writing the book, I said, tell me what it's like to have ADHD, because I don't know what that's like. And here I'm writing this book about ADHD and I don't really know what it's like to have ADHD. And so he describes it as an overstuffed garbage can where the lid doesn't stay on and everything's falling out on the floor. 

So that's how he describes his ADHD.

Yes! 

I couldn't come up with a description nearly that eloquent. 

I love it. I love it. All right. Well, very cool. Um, how can people find you? 

Um, well, I have, um, my author Facebook page is Kristin M Wilcox PhD, or they can find me at ADHDAdventures on Facebook. [same page] And you get get the book from Here and here on Amazon!

Awesome. Kristen, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. It's been a lot of fun. We will definitely check out the book and we will link to it on your Amazon link and in the show notes. And we really appreciate you being here today. This was great. 

Great. Thanks Peter. I appreciate it. 

Guys you've been listening to Faster Than Normal. We love when people come to us and say, Hey, I would like to be on the podcast, or when they have a great idea for a great story. And they have a great story themselves. If you're that person who knows someone who has let us know, we're always trying to find new people. We have a plethora!! of new episodes that we've recorded that are in the can that are coming up. The next three months are already filled but if you have someone to let us know, we'll record you and get you on the podcast as well. And you can find me at Peter@shankman.com  The podcast is FasterThanNormal.com on iTunes on Stitcher, Google play anywhere you get your podcasts. Thank you so much for listening and remember that ADHD and all neurodiversity is a gift, not a curse. And we will see you next week with a brand new episode. Thank you so much for listening and we'll talk to you soon!

—

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at petershankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Lissy Abrahams is passionate about helping people create healthier lives for themselves, as well strengthening the connection for partners in couple relationships. She is a leading psychotherapist who has dedicated her career to helping her clients navigate life’s obstacles and challenges. When our lives or our couple relationship goes off the rails, for whatever reason, we can all feel distressed and anxious. Lissy helps her individual and couple clients not just get back on track but also to thrive again. Lissy believes we all have the capacity to improve our lives and couple relationships with the right knowledge and skills. Her mission is to help as many people as possible transform their lives by creating happier and more connected relationships. Lissy completed her Masters at the internationally renowned Tavistock Relationships, a unit of the Tavistock Institute of Medical Psychology in London. She has held positions on the British Society of Couple Psychotherapists and Counsellors (BSCPC) and was Vice President of the Couple, Child, and Family Psychotherapy Association of Australasia (CCAFPAA). Lissy is available for speaking opportunities on podcasts, radio, television, expert panels, webinars, and corporate wellness programs. Lissy runs a Sydney-based therapy clinic, Heath Group Practice, and works therapeutically with clients here and around the world via online sessions. She has recently launched an online course, ‘Learn to skillfully communicate with your partner and decrease conflict’. The course explores the real reasons why couples fight, provides guided activities for participants to identify why they are having difficulty communicating, and teaches the vital skills needed to break repeated cycles of conflict. Today we're going to talk a little bit about balance and a little bit about strengthening the connection for couples who are trying to find that balance, as well as a few tips on more effective verbal communication in general. Enjoy!

In this episode Peter and Lissy discuss:  

1:25 - Intro and welcome Lissy Abrahams!

2:55 - As ADHDer’s, we’re a bit trigger happy in our communication(s). What advice do you have to manage that fire? Ref: Rejection Sensitivity

3:15 - Sometimes when we don’t feel we’re being heard, we raise the volume.

5:12 - Sometimes we’re present but not really ‘there’ with our partners. How do we stay present and how can our partners help? 

7:00 - We can be a little like the Road Runner to be around from time to time.

8:10 - What would your advice be on verbal communication & amount of content therein in our relationships?

10:50 - Is the basis of your relationship good verbal communication?

11:50 - A basic tip for better communication

12:10 - Our ADHD brains are usually going super fast; what is your advice on how to calm down for better communications?

13:39 - How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? www.lissyabrahams.com and on the Socials: @AbrahamsLissy on Twitter,  @ lissy-abrahams on LinkedIN and @LissyAbrahamsCourses on Facebook and get her FREE E-book here! 

14:04 - Thank you Lissy! Guys, as always, we are here for you and we love the responses and the notes that we get from you; so please continue to do that! Tell us who you want to hear on the podcast, anything at all; we’d love to know.  Leave us a review on any of the places you get your podcasts, and if you ever need our help I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

14:29 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

—

TRANSCRIPT: 

Welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal! My name is Peter Shankman.  Happy Monday, wherever you might be. It’s probably a Wednesday when you're reading, when you're listening to this, but it's a Monday here. It is a gorgeous day in NYC. A little cold, but finally starting to warm up into what we hope will be two days of spring before we get into 90 degrees and humid for the rest of the summer. Anyway, we are going to talk today about healthier lives. Now I say that as someone who has two speeds, as most of us with ADHD do, which is either eating tremendously healthy or eating six pizzas and a box of wine. So knowing that we're going to talk a little bit about balance and a little bit about strengthening the connection for couples who are trying to find that balance as well. We're talking to Lissy Abrahams. She believes that all people have capacity to improve our lives and relationships with the right knowledge and skills. She completed her masters at the internationally renowned Tavistock relationships, even of Tavistock Institute of medical psychology in London, she's held positions on the British society of couples, psycho psychotherapists, and counselors, and was the vice president of the couple child and family psychotherapy association of Australia, Asia CCA, F P AA That must be a lot of fun to say. Lissie runs a Sydney-based therapy clinic, a therapy clinic called health group practice and works therapeutically with clients there and around the world by online sessions; she's launched an online course called learn to skillfully, communicate with your partner and decrease conflict. Welcome to the podcast. 

Hi, thanks for having me. 

Great to have you. So one of the key things about add and ADHD is sort of that we because we only have two speeds. We, I think one of the things we need the most work. Okay. Sort of decreasing turning down the volume. When we get into an argument, get into a conversation, it's hard for us to just listen. It's hard for us to just, you know, we hear something we immediately want to respond and if we respond and it's not the response that someone expansion that there's not someone wants and may con they come back with it, we feel like we weren't heard. And that's what causes massive fights for us. So I think the first question, you know, in terms of creating a healthier life and sort of allowing our brains to chill and to calm down so we can actually hear the other person.. when you're ADHD and you're up against that times 10. What are your thoughts there? Right? From the beginning? 

I think the biggest gift we can give ourselves is a pause. If we could just take a moment to, even if it's just two seconds to pause before we react, because we're so trigger happy as ADHDer’s, we are so quick to just become little firecrackers. So one of the things I tell all of my clients with ADHD is that just taking a breath and pausing is our best friend. If we don't, we're just going to get ourselves in so much trouble. We we're quite a sensitive group as well. Um, a lot of us have rejection sensitivity as well, so we can very easily feel slighted. So. If we can just slow things down. So in fact, as speeds, slow and fast, we could do really well with that. But I think just slowing it down and breathing; because so often we'll jump in before someone's even finished a sentence and we're not even necessarily grabbing the full context and content of what they're saying, that being a firecracker, we can get ourselves into quite a bit of trouble with that. 

Um, most definitely. I think one of the things also is that, you know, when we, when we're trying to talk and we're consistently, we need to feel heard. Um, and so we're not feeling heard. We raised the volume, which doesn't help. 

It doesn't help at all and one of the things that happens there is that our partner can be quite confused and they often don't know what to do with that volume. Whereas someone with ADHD they're quite, they can be quite used to it. It's not as startling for non ADHDer’s who don't have that register necessarily. It can be quite a shock to their system and they, that cause a lot of defensiveness on their side and they'll come in and be quite triggered in return. So I think that level of that volume that we can, we can project can be quite frightening at times. 

Definitely. Definitely. What do you, um, so how do you work with people when, you know, a lot of times I remember when I was married, um, and I'm still, you know, very close friends with my ex, but when we were together, one of the things that she, she, she comments on a lot was that I was, I was there, but I wasn't really there. I never had any, you know, if the house was burning down, you wanted me there. I would, I would take control of the situation and fix everything, but the day-to-day stuff. You know, I had more of a problem dealing with the, the, for lack of a better word, the boring stuff. 

That's a really common one that day, but not there. And the way I see that is that we can become the person with ADHD becomes quite a tantalizing figure when someone's physically present, it's an invitation to connect with them. But if they're not really there in their minds and somewhere else, it's a, they become tantalizing and quite elusive at the same time. So it's a confusing proposal for a partner to, to know whether to do with that because they are wanting the connection. But then the message that's often given off is I'm in my own world and I can actually stay here quite happily thanks. 

I think that, that one of the things that you learn, um, as you're going through that. And it goes back to what you said about a pause, is that anything can really be sort of fixed if you're just able to give it time and stop and listen and think. 

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I don't know. Did you get, you get the cartoon Roadrunner? 

Of course! 

Yeah. Yeah. That's the way I, I, I think of ADHD, I think a Roadrunner who buzzes around and beep-beeps and there's all that dust. And I think that if if ADHD is and I'm one, so I totally relate to road runner. If we can remember that we are causing a lot of dust at times as well. So we might be really confusing in the sense that we run and scurry around and beep-beep over the place. But then there is that other part that you're talking about, but we can leave our partner out and get so much into our own zone. And when we've got our hyper-focus on, that's incredibly compelling for us to stay there. So w we can be a bit of a confusing partner at times. And, uh, and really quite rattling. I mean, I know in one of my, with one of my couples that I see when Trump came in, there were four years of that there but not there experience because this person was so obsessed with Trump and what was going on, watching every video that came up and every news article was read and attended to, it caused so many problems in the relationship, but that is the power of the hyper-focus. So it, it, it is a confusing picture because that there but not there is really not there at times. And this went on for four years. 

Yeah, definitely. Very good point. Um, talk about communication. So a lot of times I think that the, you know, the best relationships are the ones that have free communication and yet, no matter how much you love a person or how much you're, you're, you're involved with the person you're close to the person. Sometimes talking to them, especially when you're ADHD becomes difficult, right? Whether it's that you can't get the words out or what you're trying to say, or in the case of study, what can you tell people who might be going through communications issues? You know, I know that that, um, There's sometimes there's so much stress in a daily relationship, right? Just this day in-day-out that the concept of talking and really just having a conversation that doesn't revolve around: Oh, did you make the kids' lunches or, oh, you know what time is the play date?” You know, it sort of goes out the window.

It's a really good question about that one! The difficulty in communication, it can, it can be that they either don't know what to say or how to, how to speak to their partner or what to communicate that difficulty in it. But it could also be that there's an excessive amount of content. You know, if you're, if you're in your hyper-focus, I don't know about you, I can, I can go on for quite a while when my ?height and stuff that I'm really, really interested in. And sometimes I actually need to just check in with my partner to see if I'm just bombarding him with information. I mean, he also has ADHD, so he can come along for the ride to a certain extent, but sometimes I can say, you know, the eyes are going darting around because it's too much information and my intensity and excitement might not be matching where he is at times. So that's another form of it. Um, but I think.. if looking at the other side of what I often say in couples and communication is, you know, what you were saying about the kids and you know, that the logistics and there's also a very critical component that happens in couple relationships and I think that's what really gets into part of the problem communicating; because the person with ADHD has often really annoyed their partner, especially if it's been undiagnosed. And there's a lot of.. the partner can be quite, uh, um, they can complain a lot, they can be critical, they can nag and nitpick because they feel that their partner with ADHD isn't pulling their weight. I mean, they often don't know how hard they're really trying. Um, but the, the communication is really tainted I think if the ADHD isn't well-managed between the two of them. 

Most definitely. I think that it's a lot of, you know, it's not something that you go e., you know, you don't think about going into a relationship knowing that you have to talk. 

A-hah!

I think that's been a problem. You know, everyone's had that at some point, they go into these relationships and they don't, you know, you think, okay. Yeah, I'll be a good guy, I’ll bring flowers. You don't realize that that, that the entire basis, most of the time is based on communication!

Yeah. And I guess the thing is when we first meet somebody it's less on, it's not always necessarily around the talking because we can always take off another tangent into the sexual arena whenever and it's all so compelling in that area too. So yeah, I guess there, there. I haven't come across as many people who struggle with the talking part so it's interesting hearing you say that 

I think it’s combined with the listening. 

Okay. Yeah, definitely the listening part. And of course, it's very hard to get somebody's attention all the time. And that's where it's important for communication to show; I’ve got a rule that you've got eye contact telephones down, I make a rule that I don't talk to someone who's staring at their screen because I know they're not listening properly. So. Try not to do that as well. Um, cause we've yeah, we can't, if we're not attending, we're not going to hear anything so it doesn't matter what’s actually said. 

One final question. Um, give us, you know, our ADHD brains are usually going 500 miles a minute. Give us two or three really quick strategies to help us calm down. 

So the first one is to pause. That one is the most important one because our brain really won't deal with anything if it loses the capacity to think so, once we're triggered we're in trouble. So that's the first one. The second one is really about breathing. I think if we just do 5, 5, 5 breathing that's five seconds in- and you can either hold it for five seconds or not hold it for five seconds and then just breathe it out for five seconds, just very slowly. And repeat it five times. F or me, that is the absolute game changer or ADHD is. And I would say that's one of my top tips actually, um, for calming down. And then the other one is to just be able to go into a place that's just your own. And to really go inside your own mind, join up, what's upset me, what is it about this that's triggered me and to be able to do the work because it's so easy just to blame our partner for what they've done to us or in that moment. But actually so much of what we get upset about is actually our own stuff. So it could have been childhood stuff that we could have been told that we were lazy or selfish as a kid or misunderstood, whatever that was but it doesn't mean that our partner is necessarily saying it in the present, but it often has more impact because of what we've gone through as kids undiagnosed or diagnosed. Yeah. 

Very cool. This has been great. I really appreciate you taking the time Lissy, and, and, and more importantly, giving us your advice and valuable advice on this. Um, how can people find you?

[[13:39 - How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? www.lissyabrahams.com and on the Socials: @AbrahamsLissy on Twitter,  @ lissy-abrahams on LinkedIN and @LissyAbrahamsCourses on Facebook]]

Uh, people can find me at my website. It's you see Abraham's dot com and I've got some blogs on there and I've got my course on there as well. And I've got a book coming out in August, so feel free to contact me!

Awesome. Very cool. Lissy Abrahams, thank you so much for taking the time! Guys, as always, we want to hear what you think. If you like what you heard, leave us a review. If you have anyone you think would be a great guest, shoot me an email. Peter@shankman.com We would love to hear who that might be and get them on the podcast. We are Faster Than Normal. We believe that ADHD and all neuro-diversity is a gift rather than a curse. And we will see you next week with a brand new episode. Thank you so much for listening and have a great day!

—

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at petershankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Corey Berrier- The Sales CEO has over 25 years of experience training individuals and teams on high performance sales processes. The Sales CEO is a boutique coaching firm specializing in sales development with a focus on ADHD. Using his ADHD superpower Corey has developed systems and processes that allow business owners to maximize employee experience and revenue. Corey uses a proprietary system to guide businesses to higher sales results, focusing on every aspect of the process. A hands-on approach is used, with feedback provided throughout the entire process, which helps clients to achieve results faster. Our proven results have helped hundreds of professionals across multiple industries achieve improved sales results. Corey is a Keynote speaker, International Coach and Consultant and hosts the Top Rated podcast “Successful Life Podcast” and he co-hosts the only ADHD Sales Podcast in the world called “ADHD SALES LEGENDS', with Callye Keen. Corey is writing a book on ADHD Sales and Entrepreneurship that will be out later this year. Today we learn how he’s begun using his ADHD superpower, better. Enjoy!

In this episode Peter and Corey discuss: 

1:40 - Intro and welcome Corey Berrier!

2:16 - Corey, why..why why why are companies so stupid?!

5:30 - How can you now better things for clients via your, and possibly their, ADHD?

7:20 - Tell us what it was like growing up as a kid, where you’re from, when you were diagnosed?

9:15 - After a few minutes into an interview, do you ever ask clients “so.. are you ADHD too”?

12:21 - On rejection sensitivity

14:04 - How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? www.CoreyBerrier.com and on the socials @CoreyBerrier on INSTA  Facebook YouTube and https://www.linkedin.com/in/coreysalescoach/ on LinkedIn Also via his podcasts: “Successful Life Podcast” and ADHD SALES LEGENDS

14:54 - Thank you Corey! Guys, as always, we are here for you and we love the responses and the notes that we get from you; so please continue to do that! Tell us who you want to hear on the podcast, anything at all; we’d love to know.  Leave us a review on any of the places you get your podcasts, and if you ever need our help I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!

15:25 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

—

TRANSCRIPT:

Yo, yo, yo what's up! Welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal! My name is Peter Shankman. This is the one day a week, but I try to do as many interviews as I can because ADHD. I don't know, interviews and in the middle of that, and I'm answering emails. I get an email from someone who says hey, sorry for the slow reply. Um, we're pausing for now. So we'll be in touch. This is a client, this is a company who I've been trying to hire, not to give me money. I wanted to give them money, right. And after like two weeks, three weeks, four weeks of back and forth of contracts and everything, Hey, we're pausing guys. If you're an entrepreneur and you run your own company, there's absolutely a reason you can make money. All you gotta do is be slightly, slightly better than idiots like this. What I'm trying to give you upwards of 500,000. And you're gonna pause. You're a moron. Okay. I got that in my system. Anyway. Literally it just happened like 30 seconds before I started this call so hey, got it out of my system with apologies to Corey Berrier who's our, who's our guest today who did not sign on to hear me ramble, Corey- thank you for being here.

Corey started his business coaching in 2014. When he got tired of business, struggling to make sales and not have the ability to offer solutions. It's all shit. I have a company you should probably talk to; I just got off the phone with them. Anyway, Corey, working with his training clients who owns a small plumbing company and the owner asking you to talk with the sales team. That led to where he is today. He's based in Raleigh. He was diagnosed at age 8 and his services extended to wherever he's needed, whether it be online on the phone. Corey has excellent guidance and excellent coaching and he is going to talk about his ADHD journey starting right now. Corey welcome! Sorry about that random intro, but oh my God. Why are companies so stupid?

So it's a great, great question. Peter you're so right. You have to be a little bit better, right? You just have to be a little bit, so you're you're right. Your company does need to talk to me because they're making very bad decisions, but a lot of companies do that. Peter. I’d love to start this out by tying this to exactly why we're on the call, which is, you know, I've, you know, the thing that you ran out about me is changed just a little bit. So I don't work just with plumbing companies now I work with, well, I work with a lot of different companies. I work with consultants all over the world, and I also work with a lot of trades companies, but here's the. Really the biggest thing that I want to drive home. And why I'm on this call with you is, you know, about five months ago I realized I had no fucking idea what ADHD really meant for me. And I've been taking medicine Peter for 36 years, 36 years. And so I just, I had no idea that, you know, I forget shit all the time. I, you know, I lose stuff; my phone's in my hand and I'm looking for it. Like all the things. I you thought that, you know, I burnt my brain up doing drugs years ago or drinking. That's the truth. That's what I thought for years. And so when I, so one of, in one of my entrepreneur groups, I noticed, I noticed a guy did a post in the word he used the word neurodivergent. I have never seen this word in my entire life. And when I saw it, I'm like, damn, that is such a cool looking word. That was the first off. And I'm like, I got to figure out I'll let me just ask the guy what it means. Well, he didn't answer me. And so I'm not certainly not going to wait for him to answer me. So I just went and figured it out myself. Of course. Yep. So I Google it and it takes me to YouTube. So I like, okay, well I'll just watch one of these videos and see what it is. This guy is literally talking about me! And I'm like, holy fucking shit. What the fuck is going on? How I just, how am I just now understanding this. And the truth of the matter is, is guess what he was like. I didn't have a reason to look at. I didn't know. I didn't know. You know,

you never put two and two together, right?

Yeah. And so the reason that I believe I am so much better in my job now at working with these companies is because you know] this; most people are ADHD. Business owners, most people that are sales, right? Those are the two people I worked with. So imagine how much more money they're going to make. If I can shore up those areas where they don't even see the problem. In other words, if they've got half her and she's not following up well, you and I both know the reason for that, but he may not. He or she may not know the reason for that. And if they do know that. What's that going to do for their business. Holy cow. Right?

It might, it blows my mind. It really does. No, you look at, and then look, there there's two types of, of, of, of sort of companies that are mistaken, right. Because the type of companies just take it because exactly what you said, they don't understand how to better target their brain, how to better use the functions they have. Those are the ones that you can help. Then there are companies that are just stupid because they're idiots, right. And, and they just don't see the value they are leaving on the table. And Unfortunately, I think it's a lot, a lot more of them, a lot more out that they're just run by idiots. But no, I think that, you know, one of the things when I went out on my own as an entrepreneur, probably 20, 20, whatever years ago now, um, you know, I had no idea what I was doing, but I knew there was something I could do. And that's, I think a key thing that.. like, you realize the same thing right. In that, in that you're not sure what it is, but there's something out there there's some way that you can better things. Right. So give us some examples of that.

Well, I think this, I feel like this is the example, and I'll tell you, Peter, for years, I've been, you know, I've owned multiple businesses and I've done great, but some of them, and I had failed miserably with some of them. And at the end of the day, like here's the deal. I went through all of those businesses and all of those things. To lead me to where I am today because I can serve the people that I work with at such a higher level, because I understand the things that they're going through. I understand I can look at somebody. I can ask, you know, this people, you can ask somebody one or two questions and, you know, If they're not just like you are not right; by the way they answer. And so that's where I feel like my superpower lies is that I've taken my love for sales. I've taken my ability to connect with people and to connect people with other people, collaborations and harnessed that into I guess you would say the 88, I guess you would say that I use my ADHD to yeah, to better serve the people I work with because I can see things they can't

Tell us about when you were diagnosed. Tell us what it was like growing up as a kid. How, how did you grow up in South Carolina, where are you from?

So I'm from North Carolina. That's a great question. I'm actually from Mayberry, Peter. Yep. Yep. Good old freaking Mayberry going up, you know, I didn't have a bad childhood. I didn't, um, And in ADHD, where now looking back where it affected me was, you know, I made terrible grades. I hated school. I would rather be doing anything other than that. Outside of that, I mean, I was never put into a special ed class, which I've, I've interviewed now. I'm writing a book about this, uh, ADHD sales and entrepreneurship. And so I've interviewed, um, close to 50 people now that are professionals in the field. And. And what I'm finding is there's a lot of people that do get put in special education classes, they get put in, you know, they get labeled and I'm sure I got labeled, but I never got labeled quite like that. And so you didn't really ask me that- you asked me how my childhood was, was pretty good. I mean, I think it was a good childhood. I got into a lot of trouble. I mean, I was constantly doing something. But, you know, but I'll tell you what, I think one of the things that I think would have helped me more than anything I think is probably if they, if, if teachers then could have understood what they understand now, I think, I think my journey with school would have been a little easier. I think. I don't know that for sure.

No, I believe it. I believe it. There's definitely a, a, you know, there's a level of, I sort of the same way and that in that, you know, sit down and you disrupt the class disease was not what I had, but it's, it's what teachers knew. It's all the teachers. Right. And, and, and to, to an extent it's crazy as it is, it's something important. Unfortunately, it's still going on that way. Right. There's still, it's not as, I mean, there's a little bit more understanding, but it's not as big as it ever was.

You're right, Peter. So let me ask you this. You're a perfect person to ask this question to. So when I bring this up to people, um, you know, when I, when I'm talking to another entrepreneur or business owner that I'm starting to have conversations to work with, how would you, you know, if you've noticed this about somebody, is it something that you would bring up in that setting?

Well, you know, I can tell immediately if someone's ADD or ADHD and I call it ADHDdar, right. It's similar to Gaydar. Right. I, I also believe that, um, you know, there are a lot of people who don't appreciate it to the same level that I do. I have this, you know, I love my ADHD. Right. I think my ADHD is the greatest thing in the world and I love what it can do for me and how it can help me. (I didn’t get the entire phone ring removed). But there are a lot of people who have not had that experience yet. And so they sit there and they're kind of like, uh, this is the worst thing in the world. So I don't necessarily bring it up unless the conversation brings itself or lends itself to that. I think a lot of times there, you know, until you know, that answer. Until, you know, that answer. I tend to be a little quiet.

But not labeled probably because there is, I mean, you know, this was a lot of into negative labels around ADHD and delight you because I understand my ADHD it is a super power because I understand what I really suck at. I'm getting what I am just not going to need no matter what, the reason behind it, there are certain things, Peter, I'm just not going to do period.

No, a hundred percent. And I think that we get used to what we know and used to what we're good at. And, and we learn to be what were we learned to do what we're good at better and ignore, you know, or, or in this case pass off what we're not good at.

But you know, so my wonder and I'm, like I said, I've interviewed a lot of people and I, I found, and this is just my observation, that a lot of people in a lot of people that I interviewed, just feel like that the information they have about ADHD is really not worth a whole lot because they have ADHD themselves. And I think it's a common misconception also outside that with salespeople is same thing. Right? A lot of people think that salespeople are shady or shitty or are slimy or whatever you want to call it, but that's just a common misconception. That's just not the truth.

Well, except, I mean, there are certain, there are look there's there's truths to every reality and there's false. There's falses in every reality right? There are a lot of people there a lot. I've met a lot of sales guys who are incredibly slimy and I wouldn't wanna work, but I've also met some of the nicest people in the world. So I think it's the same thing with ADHD. I mean, I've met people who use ADHD to their advantage and they’re still assholes. I think people use. Right. So it's, you know, there's two sides to every single conceivable coin in the world. I think that that labeling people in any capacity, right. Call me ADHD, but I'm so much more than just that. Right? I think everyone is so much more than just that. So at the end of the day, you know, I don't know if the labels help.

I don't know either, but I tell you one label that did help me and you'll find, you might find this interesting is; when I uncovered what rejection sensitivity meant. And I didn't know that that's not even a, I saw even a medical term. I don't believe, uh, I don't think it's in. I don't think you would know the answer to that. I would not. I identify with that shit boo, big time, big time. I don't, I don't get to, I'm not a victim, but I understand now why sometimes I might receive what, what Peter says to me, to hurt my feelings. So to speak. And if I know that, guess what, I can be prepared for that and I can handle it with more emotional intelligence.

I agree. I agree. I think a lot, again, also understanding sort of the way the brain works in that regard. Not everything is going to be an insult, or even meant as an insult. And there've been countless times when I have been in situations where I'm like, okay, I think I, a couple of. Um, I'm walking down the street. I'm not feeling great about myself and I, I I'm looking at my phone. I could see me as I passed some guy. I don't even look at him and him go Jesus. And my first thought is, oh, wow. He really saw how fat I feel today. Right. That's ridiculous. It totally didn't happen. But our brains are designed in such a way that yeah, we're gonna go to the worst possible. So, no, that's not always the case.

Yeah, that's, that's a great point. That is a great point. And you're right. There are always, everything is subjective, right? It just depends on who's looking at it and how they're looking at and how they're feeling that day. It could always be a different answer, you know? A hundred percent, a hundred percent.

Very cool. How can people find you and get more about you?

www.CoreyBerrier.com and on the socials @CoreyBerrier on INSTA  Facebook YouTube and https://www.linkedin.com/in/coreysalescoach/ on LinkedIn Also via his podcasts: “Successful Life Podcast” and ADHD SALES LEGENDS—

Sure. So you can go to my website, CoreyBerrier.com. You could follow me on all the social channels @CoryBerrier And I'm going to, uh, I'm going to send you a link. Uh, Peter, I don't know if it's okay. I need to ask you before. If we can, if I can send you a link to a download it all it is it's just a competence is for ADHD people just to help your confidence. That's all it is. It's as part of the stuff that I work with people on, uh, it's a very, very small part of what I work people with people on, but I would also argue that it's maybe one of the most important things that I work with people on.

Please do. We'll we'll include it in the show notes. Sure.

Thanks my man. Well, Peter, thank you so much. I really appreciate this. It's been great.

The pleasure was mine. Corey, thank you so much for taking the time. I appreciate it guys….leave us a review. If you think you want to be on the podcast, shoot us a note peter@shankman.com We will see you next week with a brand new episode. It's so great to have you. And it's so great to be back recording again in the studio. Talk to you guys soon, take care.

—

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at petershankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Nicki Maher has made a name for herself through her can-do approach to business. Her reputation as a “people advocate” is apparent, as are her main beliefs are a in the power of human connection and the ability to form meaningful and lasting bonds in business. Maybe this is why she’s become such a successful voice on social media. Today we learn why and how Nicki Maher made her pivot- Enjoy!

A bit more about Nicki:  Nicki’s management career started in the travel industry where she earned the title of “top business development manager” in Travel Agent Magazine while representing global brand, Royal Caribbean International. In 2010, she began a rewarding career with jewelry and lifestyle brand, ALEX AND ANI, at their vice president of sales, serving as the right hand to the founder, creative director and CEO. Under this title, Nicki was responsible for building the foundation for a soon-to-be exploding omni-channel business. Along with focus of sales strategy, Nicki led efforts around strategic partnerships, licensing and all corporate social responsibility efforts. During her time at ALEX AND ANI, the company grew from $2.7 million in 2010 to more than $500 million in 2014. This growth was soon recognized by Forbes Inc. 500, Digiday and many other publications. Under the leadership of Nicki and her peers, the company grew from one retail location to more than 90, supported over 1,500 nonprofit organizations, and led more than 1,300 employee volunteer hours. The company also donated more than $48 million to charity through the award-winning CHARITY BY DESIGN division, which Nicki led and grew from its infancy. Nicki was promoted to senior vice president in 2015, just after returning from maternity leave with her firstborn, Leila Louise. Under her watch came company-wide partnerships, community relations, corporate social responsibility and employee engagement efforts. Today, Nicki is the founder of Nicki Marie Inc, where she works with brands and thought leaders whose mission is beyond the brand or product that they are selling. She serves as a brand advisor and offers services in social impact programming, digital storytelling and internal culture strategy. She is also a social media digital influential creator with over over 1.8M organically grown followers. Here, she shares daily bits of life, humor and home within her modern day world of "motherhood reinvented" after divorce, loss of job and overall change of direction. Here, she is stripped down from all "titles”, reminding others that it doesn't have to be the seat in the board room, or the nuclear family that defines you, but the foundation you have build at home when everything else fell apart, that matters most. The rest is the cherry on top.

In this episode Peter and Nicki discuss: 

00:46 - A slider

1:42 - On traveling recently

2:03 - Intro and welcome Nicki Maher!

3:48 - So why the career switch and how did you did you make it? Ref: Alex and Ani

7:15 - When were you diagnosed, were you diagnosed?

9:09 - Where did you grow up?

9:28 - A lot of parents don’t want kids to just be themselves- they want them to fit in; how have you been relating to your own kids?

11:00 - On a mesh of parenting styles

11:58 - Parents have to grow too..

12:38 - Less perfection, more acceptance

13:05 - What do you tell other parents if/when they get misunderstood or misrepresented on Social Media?

15:13 - On handeling comment sections

16:20 - On the foundation of family

17:30 - Knowing your strengths and communicating with your kids

18:00 - How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? @NickiMarieInc on Twitter + INSTA @NickiUnplugged on TikTok and on her podcast Homebase with Nicki

18:40 - Thank you Nicki! Guys, as always, we are here for you and we love the responses and the notes that we get from you; so please continue to do that! Tell us who you want to hear on the podcast, anything at all; we’d love to know.  Leave us a review on any of the places you get your podcasts, and if you ever need our help I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!

19:10 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

—

TRANSCRIPT:

‘Sup yo! Welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal! My name is Peter Shankman. We have travel on the agenda today, which thank God, because I tell ya I.. pre COVID man, I was doing about 350,000 miles a year. Uh, and then it just stopped. All right. If you use a skydiving analogy, when you, when you open your parachute, you go at like 120 miles an hour, you open your parachute and they have this it's called a slider, and a slider comes down the lines of the parachute buffered by the wind. So it's slowly comes down because the wind is pushing you. And it sort of slows you down as the parachute opens, because if you didn't have a slider, you'd go from 120 miles an hour to about five miles an hour in about half a second. And that would hurt. Imagine doing that in the car. I've done that before in a parachute, broke two ribs in the process. So what.. up because when COVID hit, it was essentially like opening my parachute without a slider. I went for 300,000 miles a year to zero overnight and that shit just sucked. That was truly horrible. I don't recommend that at all. Fortunately, travel seems to be coming back now. And I think we are at the point where we can safely say that people are traveling. I've been on planes I was in, I was in the hell, was that I was in South Africa a few weeks ago. And it was like, people hadn't even heard of Covid, so they were wearing their masks, but you know, flying down there 14 hours, 16 hours on the plane was, it was kind of like normal. So it felt pretty good. Anyway, that's where we are right now. And we have someone on the podcast to talk about that we're talking to Nikki Mayer, my pronouncing that right. It's Mar Mar Nickie, Maher. All right, cool. That's all right, Nikki. So Nicki Maher has been in travel forever. Um, she's a reputation as a people advocate. I love that. S he started in travel. She started out Director of Development manager, travel agent magazine. She was at Royal Caribbean. We all know them, cruise people. Um, she worked for Alex & Ani. What else do you do? She founded  NikkiMarieInc. She works with brands and thought leaders, her mission is to serve and beyond the brand of product they're selling. She's a brand. She's a social media influencer. Ooh, stop using that term. You're hurting America when you use that term. Oh wait Social Media influencer, it gets even worse. You’ve got over 1.8 organically grown followers. Organically grown followers is like something out of the Matrix where they're literally like you're growing people. You have 1.8 million. Yeah, you didn't buy them. I didn't buy them. Nope. She talks about she, she has daily bits of her life, humor and home with her modern day world of motherhood reinvented after divorce, loss of job and overall change of directions here, she is stripped out from all titles, reminding others that it doesn't have to be the seat in the boardroom where the nuclear family defines foundation you built at home when everything else falls apart. Now, this is granted an ADHD podcast and ADD podcast. And we talk about that all the time. I think sometimes it's fun to bring in someone else who may or may not be neurodiverse, but has a different perspective on life. I found you, um, I believe, cause I was following you on, on, on one of your socials, right?

Yes. Yeah. Somebody connected us. Somebody said you two have to meet because I was doing some ADHD mama content.

That's right. So Nikki, tell us what it was like. You're working in corporate, you're working for global tourism boards, things like that. Major tourism companies. Now out on your your own ADHD, mom running content, things like that. What prompted the shift? How'd you do it? How scary was it? And talk to us about how that happened.

Okay. I mean, it was, so I love the question because it does sound show massive. It sounds like, oh, she went from corporate life to motherhood to, you know, influencer and I'm with you on that word, by the way, we need to reinvent the wheel on that word. Um, so I was just, I mean, I'll just jump back to 2017. I was working for a very fast growing jewelry brand. I was with Alex and Ani. I was one of the first six employees there. So very, um, homegrown family business to all of a sudden, within my four years, first four years there, we were on red carpets. We were sitting with celebs. We were, you know, our founder was on the cover of Forbes and I was one of her right-hand girls. So it all, um, went fast and furious. I had my daughter in 2014. Go back from maternity leave after having her and got a big promotion. And I was like, wait, this isn't the stuff they write about in the books. Right? Like Sheryl Sandberg is talking about like lean in. And, uh, as a woman and going for the, the seat and I'm it's happening for me. And then jump ahead to having my son, my son was a twin. Um, we lost his twin sister Gracie a week before delivery. It was a really difficult time in my life. And, um, listen, it's what made me the mother that I am, I was back in the corporate seat, doing all these amazing things I had, like the dream job. What people think is the dream job. You've got the, you know, the big seat, you were leaning in. And, um, I just wanted to be in that home. I wanted to be with my kids. I didn't want someone else to be home with them on sick days. I didn't want somebody else, you know, getting to pick them up and getting the hug at the end of the day at daycare. So I made a huge shift. I shocked a lot of people. Um, cause when I got back from that maternity leave for my son, it was a complete 180 from what I felt when I got back from my maternity leave with my daughter. Um, the changing of was becoming more political. There were more big, bad, you know, um, resume people in there and it was no longer for me. So made the jump, um, started consulting and I was like, see, I'm proof. You can, you can consult. You can create your own world of magic with your business knowledge and make just as much money as working for the big dog. And, um, and you know, jokes on me then came a really, really difficult divorce. Um, a really difficult COVID and I all of a sudden was home with a three and five-year-old went on to good old tech talk just to learn the app because some of my clients business-wise would ask about it and, um, just started sharing myself and a lot of my add ADHD-isms. And, uh, here I am with a following and able to kind of reinvent myself in the world of digital today. I guess. I still haven't figured it all out. I sound so much more buttoned up than what this originally is in real life, but that's specific.

Talk about the ADHD aspect of it, because here you are, um, you know, right-hand person to a, you know, a multi-million dollar company is growing and growing, growing. When were you diagnosed? Did you use it to your advantage? How did you know you have it? What kind of response was it?

Yeah. So I was never, I mean, I was an 80 blue collar kid eighties, right. So our parents weren't like, oh, you're, um, you're having trouble focusing and you're having trouble in school. It was more like, this is who you are, girl own it don't let anybody tell you

or, or, or sit down and disrupting the class. Yeah.

And I'd get social butterfly and chatterbox on my report cards. And it was like, my, my grandparents would laugh about it. They'd like, okay, really? Like, we didn't know that already. So, um, jump ahead your grad school. And I, I had, um, I had a lot of trouble with school, actually jump back. middle school. Seventh, eighth grade really started having a hard time. Ninth grade. I failed D’s and an F in every single subject. And what, in my mind, What did my mom do? Took away basketball all this winter. You know, like the Italian mom, like. Worst thing you could do to a kid.

take all the dopamine away now you're really in trouble.

So, um, I just was more social driven and more sports driven. I ended up, um, being able, why I got through school so well was I was able to dive fully into my athleticism. Um, so she took away basketball, but it led me to track. I became, um, I was second in New England shotput thrower. Yeah, all state, all state track, All-American softball player and Allstate field hockey player. I had a full ride to UConn for field hockey. So tell me about, I mean, ADHD, you got to find what works for you.

Where in Massachusetts are you from?

Um, Somerset, Massachusetts. So Southeast. Yeah, I was a BU kid. So small town and, um, sports was my. Social, friends and sports was what made me thrive. And I just dug in and luckily I had the type of family that let me try all different things until I landed in something so that's how I'm trying to be with my kids. It's like, you've got to find your shit.

And talk about that for say, because a lot of parents, especially growing up and even today, right? A lot of parents are afraid to let their kids be themselves. Right. There's still this aspect of it's changing a little bit, but there's still this aspect of, of, oh, if you don't fit in, that's going to cause you trouble down the road you know, I think you and I are living proof of the fact that not fitting into will be the best thing that ever happened to you. But, you know, I'm seeing, I see in my daughter school, for instance, there are, you know, and it's just, it's just, I think it just continues throughout time. There are cliques and there are the cool kids in there, the, the, the nerdy kids and their, this and that, you know, and, and I keep telling my daughter, it doesn't matter what you are, be yourself, you know? And that's a hard lesson to teach, especially when you have a child with ADHD or ADD or anything like that, where there, or where you are. And you try to say, well, you know, I know I'm weird, but it's okay. You know, what have you been telling your kids about that?

I wouldn't even say, have you had. So I just, I, I just get a TikTok relate it to a TikTok because when a Tiktok talks go viral or whatever, they get the legs behind them, it's because they're relatable. Right? So I yesterday did a post where my daughter is seven years old. I was the biggest tomboy Peter. And, um, my daughter was wearing these like, press on glam nails. I'm talking like the nails, like the Cardi B level nails. And I have a video of she's doing her homework and she's clicking the nails on the pencil and my face and my hot mom, mass bun and my coffee cup and my like no makeup. And my hoodie. And I take a screenshot of myself with the face, like what is going on and the whole thing. And I put, as the caption, I said, when the tomboy mom gets to raise a glam squad daughter, that's right. So I left, I absolutely I'm here to keep them alive and to teach them right and wrong. I am not here to teach them who to be or what they're into. So I not identify with any one parenting style. I identify with a mishmash of everything, including the way I was raised. They're not going to be eighties kids. They're not going to be in the neighborhood, playing with everybody, solving their own problems after school every day. But if it's the new modern day of, Hey, you're going to watch some Ted talks, innocently, and you're going to identify with some people or some creativity that you'd like to be part of, then go put the damn nails on as long as you're not wearing them to school. Go ahead. Do mom's makeup? Do the wings get crazy. Make me look like Amy Winehouse. It's all good.

I love that though. I mean, that's a great, it's a great attitude to have. So how did you know? I think that, that, again, the issue is you're, you're chill enough that you can have that a lot of parents don't and I think a lot of parents need to understand that there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

That's cause a lot of parents haven't found themselves, right. A lot of parents are insecure, that their kid's doing something that they're not sure they're comfortable about. And that's really takes a lot of self love and a lot of self identification to be a parent. In terms of times I flip out at my kids is because it's something that else that's going on in my life. Right. That I didn't think what would make me look like a good mom, but in the grand scheme of things, I think, you know, the positive side, Peter, that I'm seeing on social media is that it's less perfection and it's more acceptance. We’re all Artists, and we're all trying to do our best. We're all trying to raise great kids.

And I think two years certainly haven't helped. Absolutely.

It hasn't helped, but at least it's let us see a different side of social media. That's not the cookie cutter family with the matching outfits on the perfectly decorated front porch. It's like.

That's very true. Very true. So, so what do you tell, you know, what do you tell, I guess, other parents, other than just, you know, go for it. What do you tell the parents when they; do you get crap for being the way you are, have you been outed yet for being on TikTok, but you know, at school or whatever. And I know, I know a couple of parents, um, I'm friends with a woman who lives on the west coast, who, uh, was a lot of trouble. She had her job basically evaporate during COVID. She lost her Only Fans and she was making a fortune and she had, you know, on the flip side, she was also a mother. She was running the PTA, all that she was, and she got found out and it was very, very difficult for her. Right. And she's recovered and she's fine now, but you know, there was a time when, when she's like, oh my God, we have to move etc. What, what have you gotten discovered? Have you gotten, are you that weird mom? I mean, I know that I'm the weird dad, I'm the class parent in school and, and, and, uh, you know, none of the parents it's been two years now, none of the parents. So what the hell?

That's so funny. Um, the only things that I've gotten mis.. you know, um, I guess, I guess where I've been misunderstood are only two things. One, I sometimes do these, um, I call it like drunken Dunkin. I say hot mess moms run on drunken Dunkin. Right? So. But like a nip in my coffee as just entertaining. And I think when there's people that, that take social media literally, and they take that set 10 second snippet and they ident, they make it my identity, it's like, oh my gosh, I can't believe there are people that would take a cent 10second grain of salt. That's two weeks. It's a ten second out of my two weeks. I barely drank. Yeah, your making me as this, you know, drunken mom, or when my son said he needed help with the F and jam, he was three. He didn't know. I thought it was obvious that he didn't know what the word meant. Hence why I thought it was funny. And I did get a lot of heat for that. I can't believe you staged your son to say that for clout. It's like, really? You don't know me, but I will say if people follow me and they see the whole story, they see there's as much heart as there is humor.

Of course. Well, it's funny. I did one of the, um, I did one of the, you know, uh, Instagram rail that was going around for awhile, um, recently about here's how, y’know when you hate someone, everything they do for this job, it says, look at that beach, eating chicken. And it's, it's a very funny bit, and I happen to be recording my daughter. And she said something at the same time, as you would laugh when you heard that, if you were an adult hearing that and it worked perfectly. And so I submitted it, I posted it and it went crazy. People loved it. Right. And the irony was it it wasn't her hearing that she's eight years old. Right. I'm not gonna call my daughter a bitch ever, but it worked perfectly. And so to shut off the comments because everyone was, everyone was liking it and oh my God what kind of .. But then they're gone.

Listen, Every song put on Alexa has explicitly or X rating is literally the least of my concerns. If my kids are treating people well, if they're treating their teachers with respect, if they're treating the other players on their sports teams, you know, with inclusivity, like my job’s done. Yeah. They say at home or what they hear at home, like that's our private space. Leave us alone. Yeah. I agree with that. So yeah, I am laid back, but I also, you know, I've also got a lot of that old school, which I think people agree with. I've got enough traditional in me, I believe still in traditional family, whether it's nuclear or not. I believe in the tradition of family being your main priority and what you do everything for. And then I'm a modern day mom where it's like, listen, get with the times. I want to be a cool mom. I want my kids to identify with me and come to me on whatever the hell it is in their life. And I think I represent a good balance of both. Um, my friends in real life say that when they're around me, they're like, I need like more of you in my life. I need you to influence me. And what I say to them is my super powers are different than yours in parenting. We all need each other. We're all good at different stuff. So don't compare because then you'll really be depressed. So I'm never going to have the organized Marie Kondo, stocked fridge and the organized cabinets. It's just not me, but I'll play a mean game of Barbie with you.

Exactly. I think at the end of the day, that's what, that's what we have to teach our kids is to understand that, you know, everyone's different. And just because we're not what people think is perfect doesn't mean we’re that way,

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you gotta, you gotta know your deficiencies, right. And if it's attention span, I say to my daughter, I go, did you have a really hard time when the teacher was explaining this? Because I understand when I was in first grade, I had a hard time with this. So let's talk about it. It's I think to talk and to communicate with your kids is the number one most important parenting tip that I have so much more than we give them credit.

Yeah. Very, very cool. All right. So how can people find you, tell us your, tell us your socials. *18:00 - How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? @NickiMarieInc on Twitter + INSTA @NickiUnplugged on TikTok and on her podcast Homebase with Nicki

So Nicki Marie Inc is my Instagram and it's NIC. K I M a R I E I N C. And the Nikki unplugged is my TikTok handle Well, because I didn't expect to have anybody find me on Tik TOK place. Um, so yeah, that's, that's where I'm at. I'm I'm starting a podcast and trying to do these cool things. And then I'm also getting my feet back into the consulting game. So a little bit of everything, which is how us ADD people thrive. Get me on everything coach put me in.

Yeah. I love it. I love it. Very cool. Thank you so much for taking the time. Truly appreciate it guys. We were talking to Nikki Maher. I'm gonna screw that last name up no matter how I say it, but we love having you come back again. We'll definitely have you another time. Guys, you’ve been listening to Faster Than Normal. As always, if you liked what you heard, drop us a note. We'd love to have you on the podcast. And if you have a fun story to tell, ADHD story to tell if you wound up working in corporate and now you're like a TikTok Mom, let us know. We'd love to talk to you. We'll see you guys next week. Thanks for listening as always ADHD, it's a gift, not a curse. If you know how to use it, take care.

—

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at petershankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

David DeWitt is a registered investment advisor and podcaster who helps adults with ADHD take back control of their money. He’s been a registered investment advisor for 6 years but it wasn't until he had his ADHD awakening in early 2021 that he realized he wanted to work with other people with ADHD. David knows from experience that effective  personal finance when you have ADHD is hard - even when you are a trained professional. After his ADHD awakening he set out to build a financial planning model that works for ADHD brains, first testing it on himself. And now, he's on a mission to help as many ADHDers as can. Enjoy!

In this episode Peter and David discuss: 

00:48 - Intro and welcome David DeWitt!

2:48 - Were you diagnosed as a kid; when were you first diagnosed? Ref book: “Delivered From Distraction”

3:42 - Getting diagnosed isn’t a bad thing!!

4:19 - How did you decide to go into Finance, of all things?

5:08 - So after this wake up call, what changes?

6:01 - So tell us, what should we be doing differently? What can we learn?

7:34 - What else do we need to know about avoiding those impulse/dopamine hit purchases?

9:45 - Can we still have a moment of enjoyment or “spend” every once in a while, yet not go crazy?

12:00 - How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? ADHDMoneyTalk.com and on the Socials @ADHDMoneyTalk on Twitter  INSTA and “ADHD Money Talk Community” on Facebook

12:27 - Thank you David! Guys, as always, we are here for you and we love the responses and the notes that we get from you; so please continue to do that! Tell us who you want to hear on the podcast, anything at all; we’d love to know.  Leave us a review on any of the places you get your podcasts, and if you ever need our help I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!

19:20 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

—

TRANSCRIPT:

—

I want to thank you for listening and for subscribing to Faster Than Normal! I also want to tell you that if you’re listening to this one, you probably listened to other episodes as well. Because of you all, we are the number one ADHD podcast on the internet!! And if you like us, you can sponsor an episode! Head over to https://rally.io/creator/SHANK/ It is a lot cheaper than you think. You'll reach... about 25k to 30,000 people in an episode and get your name out there, get your brand out there, your company out there, or just say thanks for all the interviews! We’ve brought you over 230 interviews of CEOs, celebrities, musicians, all kinds of rock stars all around the world from Tony Robbins, Seth Godin, Keith Krach from DocuSign, Danny Meyer, we've had Rachel Cotton, we've had  the band Shinedown, right? Tons and tons of interviews, and we keep bringing in new ones every week so head over to https://rally.io/creator/SHANK/ make it yours, we'd love to have you, thanks so much for listening!  Now to this week's episode, we hope you enjoy it!

—

Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal! My name is Peter Shankman. You guys welcome to Faster Than Normal! Let's talk about.. no not sex. We'll do that all the time. Let’s talk about money. Let’s talk about money this week, let's say money and ADHD. ADHD is one of the worst possible things to have when you're dealing with money. And I know this from experience. I cannot tell you how many things I've impulse purchased because they looked cool at the time. Remember Sharper Image? David, remember The Sharper Image store? Yeah, coolest things ever.. coolest things that are when you are a 20 year old kid or a 19 year old kid who just got his first green American express card, Sharper Image, man, you're fucked. I, I, I remember I went in the Sharper Image and I came out with a, with a inflatable raft, with a Palm, inflatable Palm tree attached to it, which would have been great if it wasn't the middle of winter at Boston University. I remember, I just, I blew it up and I sat in my, in my dorm room. Yeah. Money is not necessarily a good thing when you're ADHD, but Dave Dewitt. Who's with us today is a registered investment advisor and podcast who helps adults with ADHD take back control their money; ‘the hell were you when I was buying my inflatable Palm tree, He’s been a registered investment advisor for six years, but it wasn't until he got his ADHD awakening and early 2021 that he realized he wanted to work with other people with ADHD. And let me tell you it’s desperately desperately needed. So you're building a financial model. You've built a financial planning model that works for ADHD brains by first testing it on yourself. I think that was the same way the guy who who invented the cure for ulcers? He like drank a bunch of crap to give himself an ulcer and then treated it with what he invented a nd it worked anyway. He's on a mission to help us with ADHD; David welcome to Faster Than Normal man!

Thank you so much for having me on it. Really excited because you know, if you asked me six months ago, if I'd be on your podcast, I'd say, what podcast is that? And, um, and then I read your book and I was like, oh cool, this guy's awesome. And I'm pumped to be here!

I love it. I love it. So what's your background? So, so you, you grew up, you weren't diagnosed where you were, you exhibiting obvious ADHD as a kid or?

I was diagnosed and I was in high school and high school, um, with inattentive ADHD, but I didn't even know what the heck that really meant And no one told me. So when I was diagnosed with it, it all it really led to was, you know, people at school saying, oh, it's ADHD Dave. And so it was something that I didn't want to have. I didn't appreciate it. And I pushed it down. And then I lived the next 16 years of my life kind of like. Pretend and operate in the world Like someone who doesn't have it, which ended up resulting in a lot of pain and struggle and confusion about why I was struggling. And then I read a book Delivered From Distraction, and that was the first book I read. And then I read a couple of others and I read your book. And then basically that was in my awakening happened. I was like, you know, wow. So many things in my life now it makes sense. And that was A very, really huge transformation for me.

It's a bummer to hear that now, because a lot of times we find that people get diagnosed and they get diagnosed, but they're awakening to: “Hey, this actually isn't a bad thing necessarily doesn't come for many years after that. And that's a shame. That's something we really get to work on to change.

Yeah. I mean, doctors, you know, you know, so, right. So you get the diagnosis, then they send you to a psychiatrist, then they give you medicine. And then like, but no one ever says like, okay, You know, relationships will be hard and here's some things you can do to prepare, you know, here's some things to think about, so you're prepared, but like no one told me that. So I just was like, all right, cool.

It's crazy. It really is crazy. And it's so frustrating too, so, okay. So you, you, you will have this awakening about six months ago and you were already a financial adviser. It's interesting. It's a lot of people who have ADHD don't necessarily go into things that require numbers. I mean, I know that that, that numbers in my case are just evil. Right. I try to avoid them with all my heart. Uh, right. You went into, you went into finance.

Yeah, it's weird because I was, you know, math was terrible in math, in high school. I was, uh, I had to get into the college. I went to, I had to do a remedial algebra class to make sure I was capable. Right. And what I, what I thought when I thought about it, I was like, one of the reasons why I think math is so hard for people that have ADHD is because it's so operationally focused that if you miss the first two steps and then you catch up and you're not paying attention for the third step, you've no chance.

A hundred percent, a hundred percent, so, okay. So you go into it, you get through the remedial algebra problem, you go through it and, and you're doing it and everything's happening. And then you have this wake up call what changes?

Yeah, I mean, so six years I've been a financial planner and it wa it's been kind of, it's been kind of difficult only in a sense that I would tell people, you know, my advice to them, but I'd go home and kind of do the opposite. So I, I developed this imposter syndrome and I wasn't finding that I was, you know, earning people's trust and I was like, what is going on? And this was before I realized the ADHD thing. And so now that I got the awakening, um, I realized, okay, so I made financial mistakes, even though I know better, but it's, it's explained somewhat by the ADHD and now I can at least help other people, you know, avoid these mistakes that can lead to some painful outcomes. And, um, and that's really where I am now.

Okay. So tell us, what can we learn? What should we be doing differently? What are we screwing up? Floor's yours.

Sure. So one thing for sure is for people with ADHD, you know, your mind is so cluttered with missing bills and, you know, making sure you have money in your bank account and making sure that you can just get through the next week. So it's hard to even ever sort of stop and think about like, okay, what do I want the next 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 15, 20 years to look like, and, and why is money even important to me? So one of the first things I have people do is just like, ask that question to themselves. Like, why is money important to me? And, and usually the first answer is. I don't know, because you know, it helps me get to work and I can ..

need money to live. Right..

Yeah. And I say, okay, so you know why, so you replaced the answer with, with, with money. So you say, well, okay, why is living important to you? And like, oh, what the heck? What do you mean? Why is living important to me? I mean, living is important because, you know, I want like, okay, well, you know, you want, why you want to, you want to have a better life. They, why is having a better life important you and you keep doing that and people realize that like, okay, you can connect money to like, You know, giving back to the community or having stability or having more freedom, more options, less stress. And so if you at least get the groundwork of understanding, like what's the point of even trying to take control of this thing that's been controlling me for so long. Uh, it helps at least shift sort of the mind set. And I like to have people write down their like statement of financial purpose and put it on their fridge. So they at least walk by and we'll read it once in a while and be reminded.

Yeah. Very cool. So tell us about how do we avoid, I mean, I've heard the rules like, oh, you know, ask yourself if it's going to, where it's going to be in your apartment. And if you can't find a place where do you really want to buy it and things like that. But what else do we need to know about sort of avoiding those impulse purchases? That’s the big thing right? I think that, that we get those ideas because let's face it, you buy something, Google, you click submit, you click buy, or you walk out of the store and it's Dopamine hit, right? And that's what we're looking for.

That's totally what you're looking for. So it's hard. It's hard to sort of get into the practice of, of asking yourself questions. That question you said is a good one. Another question is. What, what value will this provide my life in three years? You know, will this give me any return on value in my life in three years? What else could I do with this money that will provide more value to me in three years? Is it saving or whatever, and, and before you even save money, you have to have a goal. Right? So one, after I asked that first question, why is money important to me? I then say, What in three years in let's imagine it's three years from now, what would have to happen in your life or to be a financial success? Like, what is your life like? And then it's usually like, you know, I'd have no debt and then goals just start pouring out, like, okay. All right. So you'd have no debt, you'd have this or that. And like, okay. So how do we get there? You know, what's blocking you. And a lot of times. Eight out of 10 times with ADHD, it's spending it's impulsive spending. It's no, no control, no awareness of their cashflow or their spending, where the money is going. It just sort of, it just leaves like the money comes in and then just leaves it disappears into this nebulous abyss. And, and that's where you have to really get under control of that. So, um, you're right. So once, but once you have the goal, you say like, rather than saying, well, this provide value to me and say, is this helping me pay off debt? And what's more important to me, this, these new slippers I found on Amazon that claimed to make me have no back pain that are $10 that are definitely not going to work, or having no debt and feeling more free. And so if you just remind yourself to have that and whatever it takes to have a monitor, maybe put a sticky note in your car and you get out of the car the last thing you see is remember the question. I don't know anything like that just to get yourself because all it takes is a five second pause to avoid that decision.

What do you, what do you say though? I mean, we can't go with avoiding. There has to be a payoff. It has to, and I know the pay off obviously is getting out of debt. But how do we, how do you recommend, do you have any tips or tricks to recommend that we, that you recommend that allows us to have a, uh, a moment of enjoyment every once in a while? Like for instance, um, there are, um, you know, when you're dieting, right? It's like, you know, once a week, take out the ice cream, put a two scoops in a bowl and enjoy it right. And put the ice cream away. And he knows what any tips to let us do have a spend every once in a while and not go crazy.

Uh, for sure, because, you know, if I were to ask you Peter, what's the first feeling that you get when I say, when I say, okay, we're going to put you on a budget?

Depressing as hell.

Yeah, It's depressing as hell. So why not call it like, at least for terminology, call it a spending plan because the budget is really, it's not a plan to deprive you. It's a plan. It's a good diet to spend money, but spend money a little bit more deliberately on things that actually are important to you. So. So when you create a spending plan, you know, you just, it's very simple. It's it's what, what do you bring in and what are your fixed expenses and how much are you going to save? And what's leftover now let's divide this between the things that you want. So if that requires a little less, you know, take out, which if you're doing five times a week, you're probably, it's probably more of a habit and not something you're truly enjoying anymore. So why not just do it one time a week so it's more valuable to you. So it's more, you enjoy it more when you get it? And then put the, the rest of that money towards things like maybe it's savings for, for, you know, that thing called retirement that no one with ADHD ever thinks they're going to do, but then ask your, you know, 75 year-old might feel slightly different and, you know, might have a health problem that where you need some money, so you can get by. So. It's kind of like that. So it's, it's allocating the money to what's important, but really first you have to have an awareness of where your money's going and, and at least get to the point where you're not building up like credit card debt every, every month because you just are spending recklessly. So we do want to enjoy, enjoy things, but why not deliberately say, this is what I'm going to enjoy this month. This is how much I'm going to spend on it. I'm looking forward to it, rather than being out of control and things coming to you and then just doing it mindlessly.

Very cool. How can people find you? How can they reach you?

Yeah. So people can find me at www.ADHDMoneyTalk.com I have a podcast there. And, um, and yeah, from there, you can, you can listen to the podcast. You can find me if you want to, you know, talk to me, you know, just that that's the place. ADHDMoneyTalk.com and on the Socials @ADHDMoneyTalk on Twitter  INSTA and “ADHD Money Talk Community” on Facebook

Very cool. You've been listening to Faster Than Normal. David, thank you so much for taking the time guys, David Dewitt, financial planner, for those ADHD, give him a call. Listen to his podcast, it’s worth it. You will learn some stuff. Very, very cool. Really glad we had you on today man, it's, you know, money's one of those things that, that ADHD touches every single part of your life and money is one of those things you don't really think about until you're like, oh shit- now I own an inflatable raft in my living room in Boston. So yeah, needless to say, I've let that go.; it hasn't bothered me or anything in the past 30 years. Anyway, thank you very much, David. I really appreciate you taking the time!

Guys as always, if you liked what you heard reach out and leave us a review, we're always looking for new guests. If you think you might fit, you have a story like David's or something cool you want to talk about shoot me an email. Peter@shankman.com. Let me know, love to have you on we interview incredibly big famous people. We have. The Dean of public health at Boston University coming out in a few weeks, who's going to be talking about how the pandemic affected people who are neuro-diverse. We've had celebrities, we've had Shinedown. We've had, uh, God who have we had. We've had, um, the mayor of Boston. We've had, um, Keith Krach, who was the, who was the founder of DocuSign on the under secretary of business, uh, under the President. We've had tons of cool people, got over 200 episodes in the bank that you can, you can listen and review anytime you want. We keep pumping out as many as we can. Thank you for listening. Leave a review if you'd like. ADHD is a gift, not a curse; I’ll say it one more time thanks to Dave Dewitt, and we will see you guys next week. Stay safe, have fun. We'll talk soon.

—

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at petershankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Adam Coutts has been teaching meditation and mindfulness for twenty years, mostly through weekly sitting groups, eight-week classes, corporate webinars, phone trainings, and one-on-one coaching.  For the past couple years, he has been leading a "Mindfulness Meditation for ADHD/ADD" course in corporate settings and in phone trainings.  He has sat meditation daily for thirty years and lived in monasteries in America and Asia for four years, meditating up to ten hours a day.  He has also been on a journey of discovery about his own ADHD for about a decade now.  Adam considers it an honor and a pleasure to relate to people through meditation teaching. Today we dip our toes into some well-honed methods and about how meditation works with the ADHD mind- enjoy!

In this episode Peter and Adam discuss:  

1:25 - Intro and welcome Adam Coutts!

2:03 - How in the heck does someone meditation 10 hours a day?!

3:38 - An hour in a float tank..

4:15 - What are the tricks? Do you let go and get in the zone? What are the basics?

6:20 - On paying attention to your body ref: Somatic self soothing 

8:33 - Stop telling me to “Relax!!” 

9:38 - Two main wings to meditation..

10:00 - A few other types of meditation to help with agitation(s)

11:53 - We don’t necessarily need to empty our thoughts!

13:03 - “Motivational Deficit Disorder” -Russel Barkley 

13:26 - On building concentration techniques, distraction, focus and thought and benefits

15:05 - On Walking meditation, other ‘easier’ techniques and ADHD/ADD

17:07 - How to know when what’s best for you

18:14 - How can people find more about you and what you’re doing? www.IntroMeditation.com

18:49 - Thank you Adam! Guys, as always, we are here for you and we love the responses and the notes that we get from you; so please continue to do that! Tell us who you want to hear on the podcast, anything at all; we’d love to know.  Leave us a review on any of the places you get your podcasts, and if you ever need our help I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse! 

19:20 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits

—

TRANSCRIPT: 

—

 Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal! My name is Peter Shankman. I am glad that you're joining us today. Interesting morning. Interesting. Day-to-day it is, uh, here in New York. This is what's called a third winter. So you have first winter, which lasts a few months, then you have a feaux spring. Then you have second winter, which lasts a couple of weeks. Then you have a fake spring and or full spring. And then you have a third winter, which is what we're in right now, uh, where it's about 22 degrees out where yesterday it was like in the 60’s. So it is very annoying and we're hoping to get into actual spring, which comes next week, that lasts for about two days. And then we're into 90 degrees and humidity Summer, which lasts until September. 

That being said, welcome to another episode. Glad to have you. We are talking to Adam Coutts today. Adam has been teaching meditation and mindfulness for 20 years. It's something that I need desperately, mostly through weaknesses in groups, eight week classes, corporate webinars, phone trainings, things like that, one-on-one coaching. But for the past couple of years, he's been leading a mindfulness meditation for ADHD, ADD course in corporate settings. And in boundaries, he is  daily for 30 years and lived in monasteries in America and Asia. I want that. Meditating up to 10 hours a day, even a journey of discovery about your own ADHD for a decade now. Okay. How the heck does one? I can't meditate. If I set my apple watch to meditate for five minutes after three and a half weeks. I am hyper aware. There's only been three and a half minutes. How in God's name do you do 10 hours a day. And welcome. 

Thank you. I appreciate it. But you were saying earlier, remind me. I live in the San Francisco bay area and our seasons are not the normal north American seasons at all. The hottest part of the year is late, uh, late September. How does one meditate? Um, I think start small. You know, that's the classic advice that, that you hear from ADHD and meditation coaches? I think when I started meditating, I think I started with two minutes a day. The first time I ever meditated was in a Tai Chi class when I was 19. So that's 33 years ago and I felt like I was going to explode. I was just overwhelmed with emotions and memories and swirling visual images and a lot of energy in my body. So when I started my daily practice, I started with about two minutes and then, um, you know, just like weightlifting, you know, you start with with just a little bit beyond your edge and then when you're ready, you, you up it as, as your strength builds. So I also think that feeling of I'm going to explode that comes for a lot of ADHD people. It's actually a good thing. It's actually, um, not something to be avoided. It's actually a big part of the benefit of meditation. I would say one of my teachers used to say, as meditators, we are trying to tolerate the intolerability of being human. I think that's a challenge for everyone, but especially for ADHD people, we're, uh, we're special winners. We get to run up against that one really quickly and really with a lot of strengths usually.

Well, I mean, it's interesting because I mean, I remember my assistant, Meagan got me a, um, uh, for my birthday one year, she got me an hour in a float tank. Okay. It was brutal. I mean, it was, it was brutal. I, I became hyper aware of everything, which is good. I believe everything, you know, I, it was, it was, but it was so I get why people like it, but it was so difficult for me to shut down. It was just so hard, so hard to, to let go. And I think that, that, yeah, when you already HD it's, it's, it's even harder. Right? So, so what do you do? How, what are the tricks of, of letting go of it? Because I know meditation is beneficial. I know I tend to get, I think the closest I get to meditating is on a long bike ride, doing 60 or 70 miles and you just get into his own where you're just, you're just passing the time. But in terms of like sitting at a table, sitting on my bed or sitting like I'm sitting on the floor and trying to do that. It is, it is almost impossible for me, what I'm sure a lot of other people, what do you tell people? Um, you know, again, like you mentioned starting, you know, like lifting weights or whatever, but even just getting into the basics(?)

Yeah. Um, well, I want to, you know, my main teacher who, uh, when he was a child, he ells stories. He had really raging ADHD and, uh, you know, he failed all sorts of classes. And then he eventually became a professor of Physics and sort of a world renowned, uh, meditation teacher. He tells a story of, um, if you had a chunk of metal, and this metal was gold, but you knew it had some impurities in it. Nickel, cadmium, et cetera. And you wanted it to be pure gold. How would you purify it? Could you stare at it and be like, get out nickel and cadmium? It wouldn't work. Well, what you have to do is heat that chunk up till it melts. And then the other impure metals, either float to the top of the bottom. I'm a, not a metallurgist. I don't know. But it's that heating up that allows you to purify it because it brings the impurities right to the, to the top or to, you know, to where you can see them. And he said, meditation is the same thing with our inner agitation. When we slow down, we heat up things can get very kind of like, I feel like there's bugs crawling through my skin. I can't sit here for another moment and that's actually pretty valuable. You heated up the chunk of gold and you can, you can see the impurities right there to scrape them off. I think that, you know, the way meditation helps is you just tolerate it. You're just open to it. You know, there's tons of techniques that I teach. There's tons of techniques out there. You know, if your listeners go, go online or go to some of the phone apps or buy a book, there's tons of a techniques, my favorite technique for 30 years now. And the one that I do pretty much every day is just to feel the body. I do a technique where I notice where my attention is drawn in the body could be a pleasant sensation, could be unpleasant. It could be strong, could be subtle. Just I let my attention float in the body, wherever it wants to go. I hold my attention there for a couple seconds deeply and fully feel that, I say it's like attention flowing into the body sensation like water into a sponge. I say the name inside my head of the part of the body. And then after a couple of seconds, I release and see if it wants to stay in the same spot somewhere else. If I notice that I’m thinking you know, which is almost all the time. I try notice the impact that the thoughts have on my body, or if there's a body sensation, creating the thoughts. A lot of times some way that we feel like uncomfortable or really comfortable creates thoughts. If I feel an emotion, I try and notice where in the body that's happening. If a sound impacts me, I try and feel where in the body that impacted. I often meditate with my eyes open. I recommend for beginners, especially ADHD, beginner's eyes closed, but you know, if I see something that impacts me, I feel that.. my body for me, meditation is often it kind of shouldn't be since there's so many techniques out there. Sort of the meaning it has, for me, it's often just somatic self self-soothing and somatic self soothing for an ADHD people, person is so crucial in so many contexts, like the social anxiety that comes up. Like I didn't get all my to-do list stuff done. I, in fact, I screwed around all yesterday afternoon. I'm a big failure. And now I have to social areas around people and I feel like a fraud. And I feel like I got to go home and get stuff done. I don't know. That's been a big part of my ADHD. And just as I drive to the meeting with people just feeling where the tension is, my body and giving it space, um, you know, being friendly with it, loving it, just seeing it, just witnessing it, letting it dance it’s dance, and then it releases itself. And again, somatic self soothing when really emotional, when really wound up for any reason, somatic self soothing. To me, that's the number one benefit of meditation as an ADHD person. And then there's tons of other techniques that have their value as well. 

It's interesting. Everyone tells. The ADHD person to relax, to calm down. Yeah. I think that, that, that, you know, ‘sit down and quit disrupting the class’ was our, it was our mantra in school. And I guess when you hear that all the time, it's usually said to you in a negative. Yeah. So, so as such, you probably do. I know, I think about it. When you think of meditation, when you, it, it translates in the ADHD brain into forced relaxation, gunpoint, relaxation. And if someone is holding a gun at you and telling you to relax, it’s probably the last thing you want to do. Right. And, but that's how we grew up. That's what we dealt with in school, with our parents, with every, Dude, relax, calm down. There's that joke that, you know, telling women to calm down has it never has the effect of getting anyone to calm down. But at the same thing when you're telling me to relax. It's just going to make me hyper focus with the fact that I’m not. Yeah. 

Yeah. Well, you know, the way I was trained to kind of traditional mindfulness meditation, there's two main wings to meditation. There's focusing your mind and kind of like empty, you know, the traditional emptying your thoughts and, you know, getting into a state of Zen where you're really, someone could walk into the room and you wouldn't even notice cause your attention so focused on the grass or something like that. That's one part of meditation. The other is be one with everything. Life just is, as it is. And you just open to it and fully experienced life. However, it is now the way I was trained, as it goes sequentially, you learn how to concentrate them. And then you use that concentrated mind to experience things just the way they are. So, uh, I do think it's valuable to try to chill out the mind on the breath- is sort of the classic technique- the way I was trained, at least, or walking back and forth with, um, really deeply feeling the souls of your feet. That's another thing to concentrate on, you know, I've, I've heard some people on, on, uh, mindfulness teachers on ADHD podcast recommend walking meditation for ADHD people. Cause it's less going at hard right angles that against digitation like sitting still is it's more, um, you know, working with the agitation by walking. So learning how to focus the mind. I think there's a value there. And I think if a person really does that for long enough, the body calms down the mind calms down. But I, I think, um, I think it's important to have patience with that process. It can take years. I mean, I've meditated what, over 10,000 hours of my life. And still sometimes it's just really hard for me to concentrate. My mind, I had when living in monastery has gotten to a point of just really crystalline and clarity where my mind is very tranquil, but that doesn't last forever. Right? It's like being an athlete, you work out a whole lot. You get in shape. And then you don't work out as much, you know, you're not in as great shape. So that focus hasn't lasted my whole life, but I've developed that tool. And then I've used that tool to just let my body, my mind, all of who I am, just be the way it is and experience it. So that's a really different kind of meditation and the way I was trained, that's seen as the highest form of meditation. So if you have an agitated, mine, just have an agitated mind. Just notice it the way it is. It's perfect. It's just something to be aware of. If your body is about to explode, you know, and you're trying to formally meditate as long as you can keep the tush to the cush and like, just let the body feel how it feels. It doesn't have to feel any different. So, um, you know, I think thinking that we have to calm down and empty our thoughts and all of that, it’s like, that's one goal in meditation. There's certain techniques that aim for that. And I think it's a useful thing to work towards without ever expecting we'll get there, you know, perfectly. But I also think there's a lot of kinds of meditation that just let all the craziness just be the craziness and just enjoy the circus. And, um, yeah. So I think really interesting. 

That's a really interesting way to think about it is the premise that you're going to be. You know, you're going to have your moment. You're going to have your issues. Just go with them. Yeah. As opposed to, um, I guess as opposed to the uselessness of say fighting the ocean. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Well, I appreciate your, uh, your, you know, It's one of those things like, wow, okay.. this is more than just an interview that actually makes a lot of sense, but again, you don't, we're not trained to think that way growing up with ADHD. Right. We're trained to think that if we can't relax that we’ve failed. 

Yeah, well, you know, like, uh, like, uh, Russell Barkley says ADHD is, is an awful name for it. You know, the better name is motivational deficit disorder, attention deficit and hyperactivity are the things that bug adults about ADHD kids. They're not the main experience of being an ADHD person, um, that ADHD adult are experienced from the inside. So yeah, hyperactivity is what pucks, uh, you know, teachers and parents about, uh, about. Definitely.

You know, getting back to what I was saying. I think even that first kind of meditation concentrating the mind, um, you know, I lead that technique. I lead meditation on the breath or other, uh, concentration techniques regularly. And what I tell people is if you did this 10 hours a day in a monastery, you know, which is something a person builds up to like being an Olympic athlete, but if you did, you might get your mind really calm, but you as a corporate employee or just someone, you know, off the streets coming to my sitting group or whatever, you will have a ton of thoughts. You will have a ton of distractions. You will not have continuity of awareness of the breath. Probably unless you catch a good wave today or, you know, you're just in a good mood, right. And noticing the mind going off to obsessive thinking or a strong emotion or an itch in the body, or, you know, the conversation happening outside the door. It's not an error. It's part of the value of the meditation. You learn a lot about. You know, how fast is my mind today? What actually is happening in my emotions, you know? And, and that bringing the mind back to the breath, bringing the mind back again and again, and you know, it can be frustrating. It can be like lifting weights or playing piano, scales, simple, repetitive work, but it's building a strength. It's building that strength of concentration that, you know, builds over time. So I think there's a, that experience of like, um, yeah, my mind isn't calm, but I'm trying to focus it. You know, even in that first kind of meditation where the goal is calm there so much value in the non-com there's so much learning. There's so much to work with. There's so much. Uh, goodness. Um, and I think it's very important to, uh, emphasize that to people that are beginning meditation. I also, if I may, I want to say something about the walking meditation.

You know, I've listened to some other teachers on various ADHD podcasts and they often recommend what I would say is making the meditation easier for ADHD people. And I think that’s great. I think, you know, anything that gets you to start the practice I'm in favor of- being a big meditation proponent. But I also think for, you know, some people even say an ADHD person should never meditate. It's just going to have them feel like they're going to explode. So don't even do it. Um, which obviously as a meditation teacher and, uh, and uh, someone that's made meditation a huge part of my life. I’m not in favor of that, that recommendation. I think meditation is great. To me, telling an ADHD person not to meditate is like telling a sickly person, well, working out will be hard for you so don't do that. A sickly person is going to get all the more value from physical vitality than, you know, a normally healthy person, it's all the more important for them to do it, even if it's harder. So there are ways to make meditation easier and there's ways to make it harder. Easier:  Sit for shorter periods. Harder: sit for longer periods until you feel like you're going to explode. Easier: uh, do walking meditation, most techniques you can do seated upright, you can do walking. Harder: Um, sit still, um, Easier: do a technique where you just opened the however you are busy mind. Great. Just notice the busy mind. Harder: do more of a concentration technique where, what you're really trying to do is, um, focus the mind set on the breath. Now, I think there's a great value in going on to, you know, uh,.. Harder: sit by yourself where it's just your own willpower. Harder: I mean, Easier: sit with a group where the groups sort of vibe supports you. Harder: Sit by yourself and silence and guide yourself. Easier: Get a phone app, you know, with that voice pops into your ear every 90 seconds, come back to the breath, be aware of your thoughts, just let things be, um, you know, be friendly with whatever you're aware of, notice the details of what you're aware of and really experience the richness. So I think there's value for ADHD people to know when to go on the easier side of that spectrum, back off, sit for shorter walk, do phone app, and when to really challenge yourself and say, this is going to be hard, but I'm going to heat up the chunk of metal to strip the impurities off and sit for longer. Sit in silence, sit still rather than walking, you know, sit by yourself. Um, I don't think we should always avoid going through the harder side of that. I think though it's helpful to know when we're ready for it and when we want a challenge and when we want a good workout and you know, what's just beyond our comfort level, not way beyond our comfort level, you know, a beginner weightlifters should not try and bench press 500 pounds, you'll just rip your muscles or trust your sternum or something just three or four pounds beyond what you're comfortable with. That's your growth edge. And so I think knowing when to ramp. Speed up, you know, uh, turn up the heat, um, and make a little bit more progress. That's that's the wisdom of learning how to meditate and have a person's own meditation practice. 

Awesome. I love it. This has been a phenomenal interview. Thank you so much Adam! 

My pleasure. I appreciate you having me on! 

How can people find you if they want to learn more?

My website is www.IntroMeditation.com There's a pop-up that invites you to sign up for my email list, where I announce courses and classes and groups. Uh, I hope it's okay for me to say I have a regular, um, group Tuesday night, 7:00 PM, California time. I also in 5 months probably am going to have in August of 2022, going to have a weekend ADHD for an meditation course. 

Thank you so much and I may take a look at that. Thank you, Adam! Guys, you're listening to Faster Than Normal. We had Adam Coutts today talking about meditation for the ADHD mind, which I found really, really far more fascinating than I thought I'd actually find it. That was pretty cool. Um, as always, we love to hear from you. If you want to leave us a review, you can do that at any of the sites like iTunes or Google play or Stitcher or wherever. Uh, I think even Alexa, you can do it on there. Cancel. Got it. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back with another episode next week and. Have a good one. And remember, ADHD is a gift, not a curse.

—

Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at petershankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!